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The new site has a link to the old one at the bottom. My opinion isn't factoring into it. However, losing i18n is pretty bad. These are the old languages that

The new site has a link to the old one at the bottom. My opinion isn't factoring into it. However, losing i18n is pretty bad. These are the old languages that were offered: > Deutsch, English, Español, Français, Bahasa Indonesia, Italiano, 日本語, 한국어, Polski, Português, Русский, Svenska, Tiếng việt, 简体中文 However, as someone who regularly studies and works with a non-English language I can tell you i18n is pretty darn important. More important than a very pretty site that people can't read. Per my own opinion, a FAQ is also a great idea. Especially for a new language that's trying to gain more adoption. Entirely removing it instead of reworking it into the new design before deploying mystifies me.

steveklabnik 7y ago
Nobody was happy with losing i18n, and it's on its way back, there were just some delays.
- intertextuality 7y ago
  That's not really the truth though, is it? If nobody was happy, then the new site wouldn't have been deployed. Or by "nobody was happy", did you mean "nobody really cared, because English is their primary language, thus they aren't affected at all"? The new website is very pretty. I don't understand why the deployment could not have waited until the translations were completed. Even just translating 4-5 widely used languages would've sufficed, although still not ideal compared to the old website. Even if people wanted to visit the old website, it's buried at the bottom of the new one, practically invisible.
  - hombre_fatal 7y ago
    > That's a lie. If nobody was happy, then the new site wouldn't have been deployed. You're losing your cool just because you have different ideas of the perfect trade-offs to make while having zero, and I mean zero, skin in the game. It's not as impressive nor noble of a position as you seem to think it is.
    - intertextuality 7y ago
      Criticizing a software update is "losing my cool"? First I was "yelling" and now this... My "different idea" is keeping the ability of non-English speakers to use the website and learn about Rust. I (and most people, I think) would not prefer a prettier site to one that has support for 10+ languages. Do you not agree? My "position" is one of someone that heavily uses a language other than English. I very much enjoyed the old Rust site, because it meant I could actually show it to people around me, because their native language was supported. This isn't a tradeoff so much as a dealbreaker. What tradeoff was there for pushing the new website deployment too early? I think it's perfectly reasonable to criticize an update that made the website prettier but removed i18n for no reason. Why? Was there a fiscal incentive to immediately replace the website before any translations could be done? So instead of making personal attacks for no reason, how about we criticize bad, unnecessary software updates together?
      - kbenson 7y ago
        > Criticizing a software update is "losing my cool"? Making as assertion about someone telling a lie comes across as that, if you're given the benefit of a doubt and assumed to not be someone that calls people out as liars with little evidence unless you get carried away. But perhaps calling people liars is a normal mode of communication for you, and you didn't lose your cool at al. That's definitely one way to interpret the comments so far, given how you equate "criticizing" to how you've presented your position so far. I think you had good points initially. I also think that when presented with facts about this specific situation you've allowed you argument to devolve into a stubborn stand based on technicalities while belittling others. > So instead of making personal attacks for no reason, how about we criticize bad, unnecessary software updates together? Indeed.
        intertextuality 7y ago
        I simply think we need to be honest about the language that we use. The truth is, instead of "nobody was happy", "nobody made i18n a priority" is far more accurate. Calling it a "lie" is perhaps too strong, but that's essentially what it is, intentional or not. If nobody was happy about it, why was it deployed? That brings us to even more questions. Nothing presented thus far portrayed the decision to update in a better light, in fact it's only made my opinion of it worse. I am used to websites having little to no i18n, but it's a complete mistake to actively remove existing i18n. For what? Rust 2018? A better looking landing page? Honestly now I'm just skeptical about the organizational structures that lead to this decision being approved.
  - steveklabnik 7y ago
    > If nobody was happy, then the new site wouldn't have been deployed. This is an incredibly simplistic view of how projects work. On any large project, there are a number of objectives, with different priorities. And there are a number of factors, some public, some private, as to why projects end up the way that they do. I am the person who implemented the original i18n support. It took me a year of effort to get it shipped. I do care about this. That's not incompatible with what's occurred. > "nobody really cared, because English is their primary language, thus they aren't affected at all"? Even if English is a primary language, that doesn't mean we aren't affected. For example, not shipping it means that I have to be embarrassed and apologize when people on the internet point out this shortcoming. Not shipping it can limit growth, as you point out. There are tons of ways. > I don't understand why the deployment could not have waited until the translations were completed. The original way of doing i18n was completely untenable. Doing it a better way takes time and effort. That's before the translations are actually made. That work has been ongoing since December of last year. It's getting pretty close now, with a lot of movement recently.
    - intertextuality 7y ago
      So aside from you, nobody on the team cared about i18n enough to actually get it implemented before deployment–it wasn't a priority. Got it. Sucks that you're embarrassed but it looks like an organizational failing to me. I would never "upgrade" a website from having i18n to not having i18n. > Doing it a better way takes time and effort. New method or not, deploying the website could have waited until even a few languages were translated. It's not like the old site was bad, what was the rush? edit; Nobody here is answering my question: why was it deployed with removed functionality? Why could the old site not have stayed up longer until a few languages at least were translated? You say things like "nobody was happy" but I'm wondering why it was deployed at all if nobody was happy. Is this a side effect of too many committees and deliberation? Why are we sitting here going "sucks that I have to explain this to people" when it could've just.... waited? Nobody would have noticed if the old rust site had stayed up for another year? two? and now I'm characterized as "mad" because I respond to HN comments. No, I just care about i18n, I'm just wondering why a website had to be deployed so badly that something as important as i18n was removed. Good for us because we speak English, am I right? edit 2; The reason I have written so much here is because I thought the Rust team was capable of quality, so I hold it to higher standards. For the website, it appears that I was mistaken.

steveklabnik 7y ago

Nobody was happy with losing i18n, and it's on its way back, there were just some delays.

intertextuality 7y ago
That's not really the truth though, is it? If nobody was happy, then the new site wouldn't have been deployed. Or by "nobody was happy", did you mean "nobody really cared, because English is their primary language, thus they aren't affected at all"? The new website is very pretty. I don't understand why the deployment could not have waited until the translations were completed. Even just translating 4-5 widely used languages would've sufficed, although still not ideal compared to the old website. Even if people wanted to visit the old website, it's buried at the bottom of the new one, practically invisible.
- hombre_fatal 7y ago
  > That's a lie. If nobody was happy, then the new site wouldn't have been deployed. You're losing your cool just because you have different ideas of the perfect trade-offs to make while having zero, and I mean zero, skin in the game. It's not as impressive nor noble of a position as you seem to think it is.
  - intertextuality 7y ago
    Criticizing a software update is "losing my cool"? First I was "yelling" and now this... My "different idea" is keeping the ability of non-English speakers to use the website and learn about Rust. I (and most people, I think) would not prefer a prettier site to one that has support for 10+ languages. Do you not agree? My "position" is one of someone that heavily uses a language other than English. I very much enjoyed the old Rust site, because it meant I could actually show it to people around me, because their native language was supported. This isn't a tradeoff so much as a dealbreaker. What tradeoff was there for pushing the new website deployment too early? I think it's perfectly reasonable to criticize an update that made the website prettier but removed i18n for no reason. Why? Was there a fiscal incentive to immediately replace the website before any translations could be done? So instead of making personal attacks for no reason, how about we criticize bad, unnecessary software updates together?
    - kbenson 7y ago
      > Criticizing a software update is "losing my cool"? Making as assertion about someone telling a lie comes across as that, if you're given the benefit of a doubt and assumed to not be someone that calls people out as liars with little evidence unless you get carried away. But perhaps calling people liars is a normal mode of communication for you, and you didn't lose your cool at al. That's definitely one way to interpret the comments so far, given how you equate "criticizing" to how you've presented your position so far. I think you had good points initially. I also think that when presented with facts about this specific situation you've allowed you argument to devolve into a stubborn stand based on technicalities while belittling others. > So instead of making personal attacks for no reason, how about we criticize bad, unnecessary software updates together? Indeed.
      - intertextuality 7y ago
        I simply think we need to be honest about the language that we use. The truth is, instead of "nobody was happy", "nobody made i18n a priority" is far more accurate. Calling it a "lie" is perhaps too strong, but that's essentially what it is, intentional or not. If nobody was happy about it, why was it deployed? That brings us to even more questions. Nothing presented thus far portrayed the decision to update in a better light, in fact it's only made my opinion of it worse. I am used to websites having little to no i18n, but it's a complete mistake to actively remove existing i18n. For what? Rust 2018? A better looking landing page? Honestly now I'm just skeptical about the organizational structures that lead to this decision being approved.
- steveklabnik 7y ago
  > If nobody was happy, then the new site wouldn't have been deployed. This is an incredibly simplistic view of how projects work. On any large project, there are a number of objectives, with different priorities. And there are a number of factors, some public, some private, as to why projects end up the way that they do. I am the person who implemented the original i18n support. It took me a year of effort to get it shipped. I do care about this. That's not incompatible with what's occurred. > "nobody really cared, because English is their primary language, thus they aren't affected at all"? Even if English is a primary language, that doesn't mean we aren't affected. For example, not shipping it means that I have to be embarrassed and apologize when people on the internet point out this shortcoming. Not shipping it can limit growth, as you point out. There are tons of ways. > I don't understand why the deployment could not have waited until the translations were completed. The original way of doing i18n was completely untenable. Doing it a better way takes time and effort. That's before the translations are actually made. That work has been ongoing since December of last year. It's getting pretty close now, with a lot of movement recently.
  - intertextuality 7y ago
    So aside from you, nobody on the team cared about i18n enough to actually get it implemented before deployment–it wasn't a priority. Got it. Sucks that you're embarrassed but it looks like an organizational failing to me. I would never "upgrade" a website from having i18n to not having i18n. > Doing it a better way takes time and effort. New method or not, deploying the website could have waited until even a few languages were translated. It's not like the old site was bad, what was the rush? edit; Nobody here is answering my question: why was it deployed with removed functionality? Why could the old site not have stayed up longer until a few languages at least were translated? You say things like "nobody was happy" but I'm wondering why it was deployed at all if nobody was happy. Is this a side effect of too many committees and deliberation? Why are we sitting here going "sucks that I have to explain this to people" when it could've just.... waited? Nobody would have noticed if the old rust site had stayed up for another year? two? and now I'm characterized as "mad" because I respond to HN comments. No, I just care about i18n, I'm just wondering why a website had to be deployed so badly that something as important as i18n was removed. Good for us because we speak English, am I right? edit 2; The reason I have written so much here is because I thought the Rust team was capable of quality, so I hold it to higher standards. For the website, it appears that I was mistaken.