11 ms·

Subconscious gender/racial biases, which absolutely everyone has, are so devilish because they take conscious effort to overcome.

microcolonel 7y ago
Surely the effect is just as likely to flow in the complete opposite direction: male CEOs who perform better gain deeper voices, or there is a common factor affecting both; and of course, the effect is measured specifically among male CEOs.
- lenticular 7y ago
  I doubt it is anywhere near just as likely to flow in the opposite direction. It's not like masculine white males are favored just because of their voice pitch. That ideal as the ideal of power is deeply ingrained in our society. More generally, humans will basically always show bias towards those in more dominant groups, because currying favor with such people is a far better winning strategy than being nice to low-status individuals. Whether the Hutus and Tutsis, white and black, masculine male vs effeminate, etc, it always is the same. This is just an unfortunate thing about the human brain, but we can use our reasoning ability to correct it. But first, we have to accept hat it exists.
  - microcolonel 7y ago
    Why would it be unfortunate that masculine men are preferred in some roles to effeminate men? I don't see the moral issue of such a preference.
    - lenticular 7y ago
      We're talking about employment here. Masculine vs. feminine has nothing to do with job performance except in maybe porn or something. If masculine men are preferred, then that means everyone else isn't. It's an obvious avenue for discrimination against women and LGBT people. I'm a very masculine gay man (I'm just stating that as a fact, I'm not better than anyone else for it). I do know many more effeminate gay men. Things really are more difficult in the workplace for them especially, not jut in my experience, but empirically. I'm glad I don't have that affect because it makes my life easier, but biases like this can creep in and will always be damaging.
      - microcolonel 7y ago
        > We're talking about employment here. Masculine vs. feminine has nothing to do with job performance except in maybe porn or something. That seems like a baseless assertion to me, what makes you so certain that masculinity or correlated factors have no effect on job performance for male CEOs?
door5 7y ago
There's a ton of overt misogyny and sexism in the U.S., nothing "subconscious" about it.
- lenticular 7y ago
  For sure, but at least overt discrimination is much more easily remedied by social ostracism or legal means.
- jdavis703 7y ago
  This is an uncharitable interpretation of the comment about sexism & racism. I’m African American, yet the last time I took an implicit association test it showed I’m biased against African Americans. Yeah there’s a lot of conscious bias in the U.S., but we live in a culture with deep seated misogyny and racism that can effect even well meaning people.
  - lenticular 7y ago
    This is a really good point. Women also show tend to show bias towards men, and gay men often show bias towards straight men. It's kind of an instinctual thing to suck up to the powerful.
  - door5 7y ago
    I agree, however I think it's important that we do not use "implicit bias" as a cover. Implicit bias seems very vague and allows people to evade responsibility. I think there's a lot of very explicit bias (in the form of sexist attitudes, discrimination, biased hiring practices, etc) that need to be tackled. The "implicit bias" narrative (that a lot of tech CEOs are a fan of) makes me uncomfortable because it depoliticizes the issue, chalking it up so something more innately human (our biases and mistakes) rather than sexist attitudes and policies.
  - markrages 7y ago
    Implicit bias tests are not valid at the individual level. https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/3/7/14637626/implicit-association-test-racism https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/3/7/14637626/implicit-as...

microcolonel 7y ago

Surely the effect is just as likely to flow in the complete opposite direction: male CEOs who perform better gain deeper voices, or there is a common factor affecting both; and of course, the effect is measured specifically among male CEOs.

lenticular 7y ago
I doubt it is anywhere near just as likely to flow in the opposite direction. It's not like masculine white males are favored just because of their voice pitch. That ideal as the ideal of power is deeply ingrained in our society. More generally, humans will basically always show bias towards those in more dominant groups, because currying favor with such people is a far better winning strategy than being nice to low-status individuals. Whether the Hutus and Tutsis, white and black, masculine male vs effeminate, etc, it always is the same. This is just an unfortunate thing about the human brain, but we can use our reasoning ability to correct it. But first, we have to accept hat it exists.
- microcolonel 7y ago
  Why would it be unfortunate that masculine men are preferred in some roles to effeminate men? I don't see the moral issue of such a preference.
  - lenticular 7y ago
    We're talking about employment here. Masculine vs. feminine has nothing to do with job performance except in maybe porn or something. If masculine men are preferred, then that means everyone else isn't. It's an obvious avenue for discrimination against women and LGBT people. I'm a very masculine gay man (I'm just stating that as a fact, I'm not better than anyone else for it). I do know many more effeminate gay men. Things really are more difficult in the workplace for them especially, not jut in my experience, but empirically. I'm glad I don't have that affect because it makes my life easier, but biases like this can creep in and will always be damaging.
    - microcolonel 7y ago
      > We're talking about employment here. Masculine vs. feminine has nothing to do with job performance except in maybe porn or something. That seems like a baseless assertion to me, what makes you so certain that masculinity or correlated factors have no effect on job performance for male CEOs?

door5 7y ago

There's a ton of overt misogyny and sexism in the U.S., nothing "subconscious" about it.

lenticular 7y ago
For sure, but at least overt discrimination is much more easily remedied by social ostracism or legal means.
jdavis703 7y ago
This is an uncharitable interpretation of the comment about sexism & racism. I’m African American, yet the last time I took an implicit association test it showed I’m biased against African Americans. Yeah there’s a lot of conscious bias in the U.S., but we live in a culture with deep seated misogyny and racism that can effect even well meaning people.
- lenticular 7y ago
  This is a really good point. Women also show tend to show bias towards men, and gay men often show bias towards straight men. It's kind of an instinctual thing to suck up to the powerful.
- door5 7y ago
  I agree, however I think it's important that we do not use "implicit bias" as a cover. Implicit bias seems very vague and allows people to evade responsibility. I think there's a lot of very explicit bias (in the form of sexist attitudes, discrimination, biased hiring practices, etc) that need to be tackled. The "implicit bias" narrative (that a lot of tech CEOs are a fan of) makes me uncomfortable because it depoliticizes the issue, chalking it up so something more innately human (our biases and mistakes) rather than sexist attitudes and policies.
- markrages 7y ago
  Implicit bias tests are not valid at the individual level. https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/3/7/14637626/implicit-association-test-racism https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/3/7/14637626/implicit-as...