10 ms·

Apple is lobbying Californian lawmakers against 'Right to Repair' bill

52 points by rhokstar 7y ago

benmarks 7y ago
> "With access to proprietary guides and tools, hackers can more easily circumvent security protections, harming not only the product owner but also everyone who shares their network" Of the many consumer insults present in this entire topic, this one really shows the ridiculousness of Apple's position.
- tombert 7y ago
  For that matter, if more altruistic people had access to these tools, couldn't you argue that security bugs would be found quicker as well? As of right now, it's possible that there are a million security bugs that black-hat hackers are sitting on that the average person doesn't have the tools to know about. Isn't security-through-obscurity considered the worst kind of security?
  - henryackerman 7y ago
    Security-through-obscurity can be very effective by using it to throw up a smoke screen. Case: you need to protect a web server. If you can successfully hide/spoof your OS/software fingerprint, an attacker won't know whether your server has vulnerable software. This makes exploit selection extremely difficult. You can protect an already secure system from 0-day or unknown exploits by hiding whether you're running windows/linux/bsd/whatever with IIS/apache/nginx/traefik/caddy. Of course this should not be used as an argument to introduce laws that limit the rights of repair shops, users or even security researchers.
    - dvfjsdhgfv 7y ago
      Really? Software detection techniques are so sophisticated these days, you need to put a lot of effort into that, and it all can be defeated by something very simple that doesn't even depend on you. Experts will find the way and newbies will just throw at you everything they have.
- simion314 7y ago
  Exactly, like the guides do not leak anyway.
  - CaliforniaKarl 7y ago
    The way I read GP's comment, is that security researchers have been able to find security vulnerabilities even without access to information.
    - simion314 7y ago
      That is true, but in this case Apple statement is ridiculous because if Apple relies on security by obscurity the problem is that the guides are shared with many employees and contractors and they arrive on the internet anyway.
natch 7y ago
The tradeoff here is between right to repair, and users having secure, trustworthy devices that will not spy on them. Put yourself in the shoes of an abused family member who lives with a hardware tinkerer who can pwn your device, unbeknownst to you, enabling further abuse (not talking about physical abuse necessarily here). Just to take one slice of the population as an example, Apple has many gay and trans employees and no doubt users as well, so they are keenly aware of the problems these people can face whether while growing up, or afterwards. As another example, take a look at the /r/atheism subreddit FAQ about coming out to your family, and read some of the horror stories there. People get disowned, kicked out of their parents homes, physically threatened, and even physically harmed in some cases, just for thinking for themselves. As another example, in some cultures, honor killings are also a thing. Users deserve to have their personal devices be secure, even from hostile family or household members. On the other side is right to repair. I would love to see both sides be satisfied, but I do think the right to repair folks have been too militant in ignoring and dismissing the legitimate concerns Apple has about preserving user privacy. Then there is the bogus line of argument that Apple is only against right to repair because they are heartless, greedy, profit fiends. But there are plenty of profit opportunities they have forgone, such as gathering personal data to exploit for ad networks, which argue otherwise. So I don't buy it.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- quakeguy 7y ago
  Sorry, but what do you want to say with your comment? Changing a broken screen does not invalidate any chips on the motherboard afaik..
  - natch 7y ago
    I think my comment is pretty clear. Just to address your one cherry-picked hardware item: >Changing a broken screen does not invalidate any chips on the motherboard afaik.. On some devices (those with fingerprint sensors) there are security implications.
benologist 7y ago
If there was a right to repair and Apple released three generations of bad laptops someone else could probably fix their mistake while they were still in the denial phase.
brensmith 7y ago
Ugh! As a former Apple fanboi, this is the reason I no longer own any Apple equipment. Apple products are beautiful, and very well designed, but so is a rhinestone straitjacket.
sigzero 7y ago
Let them repair but it should void any warranty.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
  Why exactly should a vendor not be responsible for the quality of its product just because they weren't hired to repair it?
  - mfatica 7y ago
    Why should a vendor be responsible for any damages caused by unauthorized repairs using unknown methods and equipment?
    - dragonwriter 7y ago
      Warranties only cover manufacturing defects, not damage caused by independent repair. Voiding warranties for independent repair means that having such repair done to fix one problem voids the manufacturers responsibility for any unrelated defects.
    - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
      1. Who is talking about unauthorized repairs? I am talking about repairs that are authorized, by the owner of the product, because who else would possibly have the authority to decide who is allowed to do something with a thing, such as repairing it, if not the owner of that thing? 2. Who says the vendor should be responsible for damages caused by repairs not done by the vendor? I was responding to someone who said that a repair not done by the vendor should void the warranty. Warranty only covers defects caused by the vendor, thus what they suggested was that vendors should not be liable for defects they themselves caused if someone else has repaired their product.
ekianjo 7y ago
> "When an electronic product breaks, consumers have a variety of repair options, including using an OEM's [original equipment manufacturer] authorized repair network." Yeah, it's called taxing users for the defects you engineered in the first place. Look at how ridiculous the glued keyboard fiasco was with Apple, which refused to admit any guilt in their design for several years and charged users several hundred bucks for official repairs if they did not subscribe any special warranty.
Simulacra 7y ago
I agree and disagree. I think people should have the absolute right to repair and modify their devices, with or without an existing warranty. However to support that activity while forcing companies to honor the warranty feels wrong. It's like saying here, I screwed it up, now you fix it for free.
wayneftw 7y ago
I'd also like to see a "right to install" bill that targets all major computing device platforms. Nobody should be able to sell devices to millions of people without giving those customers the ability to install their own software. There should be no arbitrary limits such as "you have to plug your device into another device every 7 days just to keep your custom software installed".

52 points by rhokstar 7y ago

> "With access to proprietary guides and tools, hackers can more easily circumvent security protections, harming not only the product owner but also everyone who shares their network" Of the many consumer insults present in this entire topic, this one really shows the ridiculousness of Apple's position.

tombert 7y ago
For that matter, if more altruistic people had access to these tools, couldn't you argue that security bugs would be found quicker as well? As of right now, it's possible that there are a million security bugs that black-hat hackers are sitting on that the average person doesn't have the tools to know about. Isn't security-through-obscurity considered the worst kind of security?
- henryackerman 7y ago
  Security-through-obscurity can be very effective by using it to throw up a smoke screen. Case: you need to protect a web server. If you can successfully hide/spoof your OS/software fingerprint, an attacker won't know whether your server has vulnerable software. This makes exploit selection extremely difficult. You can protect an already secure system from 0-day or unknown exploits by hiding whether you're running windows/linux/bsd/whatever with IIS/apache/nginx/traefik/caddy. Of course this should not be used as an argument to introduce laws that limit the rights of repair shops, users or even security researchers.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 7y ago
    Really? Software detection techniques are so sophisticated these days, you need to put a lot of effort into that, and it all can be defeated by something very simple that doesn't even depend on you. Experts will find the way and newbies will just throw at you everything they have.
simion314 7y ago
Exactly, like the guides do not leak anyway.
- CaliforniaKarl 7y ago
  The way I read GP's comment, is that security researchers have been able to find security vulnerabilities even without access to information.
  - simion314 7y ago
    That is true, but in this case Apple statement is ridiculous because if Apple relies on security by obscurity the problem is that the guides are shared with many employees and contractors and they arrive on the internet anyway.

natch 7y ago

The tradeoff here is between right to repair, and users having secure, trustworthy devices that will not spy on them. Put yourself in the shoes of an abused family member who lives with a hardware tinkerer who can pwn your device, unbeknownst to you, enabling further abuse (not talking about physical abuse necessarily here). Just to take one slice of the population as an example, Apple has many gay and trans employees and no doubt users as well, so they are keenly aware of the problems these people can face whether while growing up, or afterwards. As another example, take a look at the /r/atheism subreddit FAQ about coming out to your family, and read some of the horror stories there. People get disowned, kicked out of their parents homes, physically threatened, and even physically harmed in some cases, just for thinking for themselves. As another example, in some cultures, honor killings are also a thing. Users deserve to have their personal devices be secure, even from hostile family or household members. On the other side is right to repair. I would love to see both sides be satisfied, but I do think the right to repair folks have been too militant in ignoring and dismissing the legitimate concerns Apple has about preserving user privacy. Then there is the bogus line of argument that Apple is only against right to repair because they are heartless, greedy, profit fiends. But there are plenty of profit opportunities they have forgone, such as gathering personal data to exploit for ad networks, which argue otherwise. So I don't buy it.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
quakeguy 7y ago
Sorry, but what do you want to say with your comment? Changing a broken screen does not invalidate any chips on the motherboard afaik..
- natch 7y ago
  I think my comment is pretty clear. Just to address your one cherry-picked hardware item: >Changing a broken screen does not invalidate any chips on the motherboard afaik.. On some devices (those with fingerprint sensors) there are security implications.

benologist 7y ago

If there was a right to repair and Apple released three generations of bad laptops someone else could probably fix their mistake while they were still in the denial phase.

brensmith 7y ago

Ugh! As a former Apple fanboi, this is the reason I no longer own any Apple equipment. Apple products are beautiful, and very well designed, but so is a rhinestone straitjacket.

sigzero 7y ago

Let them repair but it should void any warranty.

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
Why exactly should a vendor not be responsible for the quality of its product just because they weren't hired to repair it?
- mfatica 7y ago
  Why should a vendor be responsible for any damages caused by unauthorized repairs using unknown methods and equipment?
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    Warranties only cover manufacturing defects, not damage caused by independent repair. Voiding warranties for independent repair means that having such repair done to fix one problem voids the manufacturers responsibility for any unrelated defects.
  - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
    1. Who is talking about unauthorized repairs? I am talking about repairs that are authorized, by the owner of the product, because who else would possibly have the authority to decide who is allowed to do something with a thing, such as repairing it, if not the owner of that thing? 2. Who says the vendor should be responsible for damages caused by repairs not done by the vendor? I was responding to someone who said that a repair not done by the vendor should void the warranty. Warranty only covers defects caused by the vendor, thus what they suggested was that vendors should not be liable for defects they themselves caused if someone else has repaired their product.

ekianjo 7y ago

> "When an electronic product breaks, consumers have a variety of repair options, including using an OEM's [original equipment manufacturer] authorized repair network." Yeah, it's called taxing users for the defects you engineered in the first place. Look at how ridiculous the glued keyboard fiasco was with Apple, which refused to admit any guilt in their design for several years and charged users several hundred bucks for official repairs if they did not subscribe any special warranty.

Simulacra 7y ago

I agree and disagree. I think people should have the absolute right to repair and modify their devices, with or without an existing warranty. However to support that activity while forcing companies to honor the warranty feels wrong. It's like saying here, I screwed it up, now you fix it for free.

wayneftw 7y ago

I'd also like to see a "right to install" bill that targets all major computing device platforms. Nobody should be able to sell devices to millions of people without giving those customers the ability to install their own software. There should be no arbitrary limits such as "you have to plug your device into another device every 7 days just to keep your custom software installed".