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Your comment may be an example of what I'm talking about: it's not a rational response to what I said, so you may be inhibited from understanding my comment rat

Your comment may be an example of what I'm talking about: it's not a rational response to what I said, so you may be inhibited from understanding my comment rationally. Let's look at each part: > The problem is that for some people, that 'drunk' state is chronic, never-ending and for all intents and purposes, permanent. There is undoubtedly an element of "talking past each other" here. There are degrees of despair, of depression. There are permanent circumstances and temporary ones. But you have generalized to one extreme while ignoring the other, which isn't right or fair. There are many people who want to commit suicide and even attempt it due to truly temporary circumstances. It is absolutely true that in such cases, the real problem was the state of mind and not the circumstances. So it's absolutely right to remind such people that they are contemplating "a permanent solution to a temporary problem." And it's absolutely wrong for you to lump such cases into others, as if they were right to consider or actually commit suicide. Beyond that, there are many people who live fulfilling, meaningful lives despite debilitating, permanent circumstances. What is the difference between their difficult yet livable lives and those who choose suicide? The difference is state of mind. This does not belittle their suffering--it honors those who carry on despite suffering. Their example edifies us all--if we are willing to see it. > Depression isn't just the low feeling after a bad breakup, or a job loss or some other life hurdle. Sometimes it's a chronic condition that may not ever end because it doesn't have any of those typical 'triggers', it's clinical and relentless. > When you understand that, you'll see why that in telling someone their planned suicide is merely 'a permanent solution to a temporary problem' they look at you with nothing more than contempt. > Because you don't understand what its like. You never will. That is definitely an irrational response to my comment. You have no idea who I am and what my experiences are. You have created an image of me in your mind and are misdirecting your anger toward it. I have no idea who you are or what your experiences are; I don't know if you are seeking escape from your own problems, or whether you feel guilt about others' poor choices that you weren't able to prevent. But your judgment regarding these issues is definitely impaired by your current state of mind. This is plain because you are not responding rationally. This is not necessarily something to be ashamed of; it's part of the human condition. We all suffer this at times in our lives. The question now is whether you will remain angry and in denial, or whether you are willing to recognize the problem and seek help to grow. Maybe you are going through the stages of grief, in which case you should recognize that and give yourself time; recognize that what has happened, has happened, and what remains now is to adjust your state of mind and move on. In any case, what is clear from your comment is that your current state of mind is unfit for interpreting and judging rationally. You absolutely can see circumstances and past events differently in the future, if you will allow yourself. There are people who make it their life's work to help people in need like this, to solve serious problems, to adapt, to grieve, to grow. This does not promise solutions to all problems, nor permanent ones. But life remains livable and worth living. Let those people help you find a way forward.

ionised 7y ago
I'm trying to interpret your post in the most charitable way possible but the common theme I'm seeing (and I apologise if I'm wrong) in all those paragraphs is "You are not fit to make decisions regarding your own life because your are broken. Live is awesome, accept it." You are never going to reach anyone suffering from a mental illness with that attitude. You simply will not. Let's first address the fact that you seem to be addressing me as if I'm the one currently struggling with suicide (I'm not). You're telling me that my opinions on the subject are invalid and dismissable simply for that reason. Not only does that break HN's guidelines, but it's a complete non-sequitur and a poison pill to the debate. This is why people who actually need help won't listen to you and others like you, regardless of how well-meaning your intentions, because you are not actually interested in listening to them which is what they need most. You want them to stay alive, but beyond that people don't really give the depressive much thought. I have to wonder how much they just want to stop something they find deeply uncomfortable, not for the sake of the depressed person, but for themselves. > And it's absolutely wrong for you to lump such cases into others, as if they were right to consider or actually commit suicide. Nowhere did I say they should definitely commit suicide so I'd appreciate it if you didn't heavily imply that. I simply said that you telling them that their problem is temporary is not going to help as much as you think. Simply pointing out the obvious to these people isn't the profound insight you think it is. They've heard it a million times before and it doesn't help. And then there are the people for whom the problem is simply not temporary, but chronic. > But your judgment regarding these issues is definitely impaired by your current state of mind. This is plain because you are not responding rationally. Again. Awesome way to completely dismiss what I'm saying. Address what I'm saying, not the reasons you have invented in your head for why you think I might be saying them. And be charitable with your interpretations of what I'm saying. It's an HN guideline. > That is definitely an irrational response to my comment. You have no idea who I am and what my experiences are. You have created an image of me in your mind and are misdirecting your anger toward it. When I said 'you' here I wasn't referring to you specifically. I meant you as in people who try to reason with depressives in this way by telling them their problems are temporary. Even if that was true (which you acknowledge in some cases it simply isn't) I'm, just telling you that it is a seriously unhelpful and often condescending manner to take with such a person. > But your judgment regarding these issues is definitely impaired by your current state of mind. This is plain because you are not responding rationally. You keep attacking me rather than the points I am making. You are really not coming across positively by doing this. It is completely toxic to a debate. It may also come as a surprise to you but people with depression or anxiety or whetever else are still capable of critical thinking and reasoning. They are not psychotic. In fact the next four paragraphs are more the same dismissive crap without subtance. You've broken at least two of the site guidelines regarding charitable interpretations of another user's posts and addressing the point of their posts instead of shallow dismissals in the form of ad-hominem attacks on their character. You are only interested in being listened to, not in listening. That there, is the crux of my argument. You suck at reasoning with depressives, and apparently people who disagree with you. And in spite of me knowing nothing about you or your life, I'm comfortable making the assertion that you know nothing about this subject and have had very little exposure to people who do. You are no more than an armchair psychologist. That much is clear to me simply because you clearly have not the first idea of how to actually talk to someone with these kinds of issues.

ionised 7y ago

I'm trying to interpret your post in the most charitable way possible but the common theme I'm seeing (and I apologise if I'm wrong) in all those paragraphs is "You are not fit to make decisions regarding your own life because your are broken. Live is awesome, accept it." You are never going to reach anyone suffering from a mental illness with that attitude. You simply will not. Let's first address the fact that you seem to be addressing me as if I'm the one currently struggling with suicide (I'm not). You're telling me that my opinions on the subject are invalid and dismissable simply for that reason. Not only does that break HN's guidelines, but it's a complete non-sequitur and a poison pill to the debate. This is why people who actually need help won't listen to you and others like you, regardless of how well-meaning your intentions, because you are not actually interested in listening to them which is what they need most. You want them to stay alive, but beyond that people don't really give the depressive much thought. I have to wonder how much they just want to stop something they find deeply uncomfortable, not for the sake of the depressed person, but for themselves. > And it's absolutely wrong for you to lump such cases into others, as if they were right to consider or actually commit suicide. Nowhere did I say they should definitely commit suicide so I'd appreciate it if you didn't heavily imply that. I simply said that you telling them that their problem is temporary is not going to help as much as you think. Simply pointing out the obvious to these people isn't the profound insight you think it is. They've heard it a million times before and it doesn't help. And then there are the people for whom the problem is simply not temporary, but chronic. > But your judgment regarding these issues is definitely impaired by your current state of mind. This is plain because you are not responding rationally. Again. Awesome way to completely dismiss what I'm saying. Address what I'm saying, not the reasons you have invented in your head for why you think I might be saying them. And be charitable with your interpretations of what I'm saying. It's an HN guideline. > That is definitely an irrational response to my comment. You have no idea who I am and what my experiences are. You have created an image of me in your mind and are misdirecting your anger toward it. When I said 'you' here I wasn't referring to you specifically. I meant you as in people who try to reason with depressives in this way by telling them their problems are temporary. Even if that was true (which you acknowledge in some cases it simply isn't) I'm, just telling you that it is a seriously unhelpful and often condescending manner to take with such a person. > But your judgment regarding these issues is definitely impaired by your current state of mind. This is plain because you are not responding rationally. You keep attacking me rather than the points I am making. You are really not coming across positively by doing this. It is completely toxic to a debate. It may also come as a surprise to you but people with depression or anxiety or whetever else are still capable of critical thinking and reasoning. They are not psychotic. In fact the next four paragraphs are more the same dismissive crap without subtance. You've broken at least two of the site guidelines regarding charitable interpretations of another user's posts and addressing the point of their posts instead of shallow dismissals in the form of ad-hominem attacks on their character. You are only interested in being listened to, not in listening. That there, is the crux of my argument. You suck at reasoning with depressives, and apparently people who disagree with you. And in spite of me knowing nothing about you or your life, I'm comfortable making the assertion that you know nothing about this subject and have had very little exposure to people who do. You are no more than an armchair psychologist. That much is clear to me simply because you clearly have not the first idea of how to actually talk to someone with these kinds of issues.