10 ms·

Microsoft engineer complains that company is biased

KirinDave 7y ago
Ars did a good job of writing this article to express the opinions of the subjects of the case but still take an opportunity to state the facts: that there is basically no evidence women are naturally unsuited to programming and that in other places in the world it doesn't always hold.
- fefe23 7y ago
  I don't think that was the claim of the original engineer though. More that women like other things more?
  - lsiebert 7y ago
    The Microsoft employee wasn't an engineer, and said: "Many women simply aren’t cut out for the corporate rat race, so to speak, and that’s not because of ‘the patriarchy,’ it’s because men and women aren’t identical, and women are much more inclined to gain fulfillment elsewhere." and: "men and women think very differently from each other, and the specific types of thought process and problem solving required for engineering of all kinds (software or otherwise) are simply less prevalent among women." Source: https://qz.com/1598345/microsoft-staff-are-openly-questioning-the-value-of-diversity/ https://qz.com/1598345/microsoft-staff-are-openly-questionin...
  - KirinDave 7y ago
    She did, in fact. Please see the other reply to your question, as they beat me to it. People always try to soften the blow with "preferences" but it's really a non-argument that doesn't stand up to even the most casual scrutiny. And then, the exact same data that refutes the "women aren't suited" argument also refutes the "maybe women are on average incapable of deriving satisfaction from this work."
  - naikrovek 7y ago
    In a world without external gender bias, neither males nor females would ever be told, implicitly or explicitly, that any job is unsuitable for them. "Women like other things more" because fewer men are in those fields to tell them "this is a job for men." There is no overall gender-based bias towards or away from any intellectual interests. If a field is full of asshole men, it is not indicative of a lack of interest in that field from women. It is a lack of interest in putting up with those asshole men that will keep most women away.
    - NotAnEconomist 7y ago
      > "Women like other things more" because fewer men are in those fields to tell them "this is a job for men." There is no overall gender-based bias towards or away from any intellectual interests. Do you have evidence for this? The evidence I've seen, say, comparing Scandinavian women to Eastern European women, indicates that there are sex-correlated trends in life choices, eg about career. https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/political-correctness/the-gender-scandal-part-one-scandinavia-and-part-two-canada/ https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/political-correctness/the-ge...
      - KirinDave 7y ago
        The article itself debunks these claims with both historical and contemporary evidence, but let's step back for a moment here. Just note for a moment that Peterson's argument seems to hinge on proving there are sex-differences. I'm not sure how much I believe him (he's not very trustworthy and he mis-cites things a lot in my experience), but let's proceed as if I do not dispute this point. Fine: "There are sex differences on a variety of scales." This concession is easy, because no one really disputes this![0] What's disputed is what the impact and interpretation of these should be. If a dislike of computer programming is universal under this hypothesis, then we should not find such trivial counter-examples as the article has. Software can be about people. Design can be about things. The outrageous claim is that the minds women possess are unsuited to the task at hand, not that women might be different. And this is the claim Peterson dances around continually. He'd much rather talk about what post-scarcity people in a semi-socialist nation focus on doing than ask the question, "How good is anyone at a given job?" You know what? If I wasn't living the Bay Area where expenses are so high; I wouldn't work for a tech company either. It's not a friendly place to be, and it's a place that reviles personal growth. [0]: Not even trans people suggest there are "no sex differences." If they did, then why would so many go to such difficulty to do HRT and even surgical modification? The argument is that there is more to the story of what it means to be a woman or a man, and we should recognize that.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- shard972 7y ago
  Just like there is basically no evidence men are naturally unsuited to being a mother.
  - KirinDave 7y ago
    I doubt even you know exactly what you meant by this.
- strken 7y ago
  There is some handwavy evidence for the other side that they didn't present. Off the top of my head, there's an Australian study that found removing names from resumes lowered the number of women who made it through, and there's the "paradox" of lower income countries having a much greater proportion of female software developers. I don't think either of these is particularly strong evidence, but including and then dismissing them would have been more convincing than pretending they don't exist.
  - KirinDave 7y ago
    Don't worry. 800 Jordan Peterson fans will emerge from the woodwork using his same tactic of arguing one thing and saying it presents an causality argument for another thing. I am sure they'll get the message across.
Johnny555 7y ago
She follows up that it is "established fact" that the "specific types of thought process and problem solving required for engineering of all kinds (software or otherwise) are simply less prevalent among women" I'd like to see where she got this "established fact". Many of the early computer pioneers were women, and many of the early human "computers" were also women. I've known some extremely talented female software engineers (and some mediocre ones), and well as some extremely talented male software engineers (and some mediocre ones). But, I've met many many more male engineers than female which I believe is because more females are discouraged from entering the field by society. Since this trend seems to be changing, it will be interesting to see in a decade or two if the field becomes more balanced.
- randiantech 7y ago
  https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/political-correctness/the-gender-scandal-part-one-scandinavia-and-part-two-canada/ https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/political-correctness/the-ge...
  - tomlock 7y ago
    For years Mr. Peterson has criticised people as being Marxists but didn't read the Communist Manifesto until about two weeks ago. I'm not sure he's best positioned to offer commentary on complex topics like this one.
    - shard972 7y ago
      Then who is? Ben shaprio?
      - tornadon 7y ago
        Both are hacks.
    - RandomInteger4 7y ago
      That is a lie. He said he read it in preparation, because he hadn't read it in a while.
neilv 7y ago
This keeps happening. When someone says things like, "Women overall aren't as good at programming", rather than responding, "There's no evidence of that" (and then they argue that, or quietly simmer with resentment that will keep bubbling up), I'm wondering whether it's better to respond, "What do you think that generalization sounds like to your colleagues who are women, and to women and girls considering the many careers and activities involving programming?" There are other discussions to have, and some of the problems seem very difficult, but maybe starting with a bit more sensitivity, and respecting that, will help make progress on the problems. (FWIW, when I started as a teen intern at a real software engineering company, half of my team was female. The women included: one with a math degree, who developed a fancy code path instrumentation tool for embedded systems, which integrated with our technical workstation software; one who we'd hired away from working on supercomputer compilers, to develop a language reverse-engineering tool; one who was an EE; one who was an MS and published on a technical computer graphics method; one who was a database expert with published research. The women all were comparable to the men, who also weren't slouches (other than me, who was just an enthusiastic but know-little intern). Everyone was supportive, and worked together well, and there were technical debates and people confident of their ideas, but no strutting. How that is not the norm today, I could venture some guesses, but regardless, I don't see a good reason it can't be the norm.) Edit: While I typed that comment, the post was marked a dup (without a link to whatever it's a dup of), and has dropped off the front page. Sigh.
RickJWagner 7y ago
I started work in IT in 1990. I do remember more female programmers at the time. (Of all pay grades, some senior programmers.) At the same time, I believe the female mind thinks differently than the male mind. This is confirmed several times daily as I interact with my dear wife. (This is not to say that either brain is superior for programming. I don't believe this is true. They are just different.)

Ars did a good job of writing this article to express the opinions of the subjects of the case but still take an opportunity to state the facts: that there is basically no evidence women are naturally unsuited to programming and that in other places in the world it doesn't always hold.

fefe23 7y ago
I don't think that was the claim of the original engineer though. More that women like other things more?
- lsiebert 7y ago
  The Microsoft employee wasn't an engineer, and said: "Many women simply aren’t cut out for the corporate rat race, so to speak, and that’s not because of ‘the patriarchy,’ it’s because men and women aren’t identical, and women are much more inclined to gain fulfillment elsewhere." and: "men and women think very differently from each other, and the specific types of thought process and problem solving required for engineering of all kinds (software or otherwise) are simply less prevalent among women." Source: https://qz.com/1598345/microsoft-staff-are-openly-questioning-the-value-of-diversity/ https://qz.com/1598345/microsoft-staff-are-openly-questionin...
- KirinDave 7y ago
  She did, in fact. Please see the other reply to your question, as they beat me to it. People always try to soften the blow with "preferences" but it's really a non-argument that doesn't stand up to even the most casual scrutiny. And then, the exact same data that refutes the "women aren't suited" argument also refutes the "maybe women are on average incapable of deriving satisfaction from this work."
- naikrovek 7y ago
  In a world without external gender bias, neither males nor females would ever be told, implicitly or explicitly, that any job is unsuitable for them. "Women like other things more" because fewer men are in those fields to tell them "this is a job for men." There is no overall gender-based bias towards or away from any intellectual interests. If a field is full of asshole men, it is not indicative of a lack of interest in that field from women. It is a lack of interest in putting up with those asshole men that will keep most women away.
  - NotAnEconomist 7y ago
    > "Women like other things more" because fewer men are in those fields to tell them "this is a job for men." There is no overall gender-based bias towards or away from any intellectual interests. Do you have evidence for this? The evidence I've seen, say, comparing Scandinavian women to Eastern European women, indicates that there are sex-correlated trends in life choices, eg about career. https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/political-correctness/the-gender-scandal-part-one-scandinavia-and-part-two-canada/ https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/political-correctness/the-ge...
    - KirinDave 7y ago
      The article itself debunks these claims with both historical and contemporary evidence, but let's step back for a moment here. Just note for a moment that Peterson's argument seems to hinge on proving there are sex-differences. I'm not sure how much I believe him (he's not very trustworthy and he mis-cites things a lot in my experience), but let's proceed as if I do not dispute this point. Fine: "There are sex differences on a variety of scales." This concession is easy, because no one really disputes this![0] What's disputed is what the impact and interpretation of these should be. If a dislike of computer programming is universal under this hypothesis, then we should not find such trivial counter-examples as the article has. Software can be about people. Design can be about things. The outrageous claim is that the minds women possess are unsuited to the task at hand, not that women might be different. And this is the claim Peterson dances around continually. He'd much rather talk about what post-scarcity people in a semi-socialist nation focus on doing than ask the question, "How good is anyone at a given job?" You know what? If I wasn't living the Bay Area where expenses are so high; I wouldn't work for a tech company either. It's not a friendly place to be, and it's a place that reviles personal growth. [0]: Not even trans people suggest there are "no sex differences." If they did, then why would so many go to such difficulty to do HRT and even surgical modification? The argument is that there is more to the story of what it means to be a woman or a man, and we should recognize that.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
shard972 7y ago
Just like there is basically no evidence men are naturally unsuited to being a mother.
- KirinDave 7y ago
  I doubt even you know exactly what you meant by this.
strken 7y ago
There is some handwavy evidence for the other side that they didn't present. Off the top of my head, there's an Australian study that found removing names from resumes lowered the number of women who made it through, and there's the "paradox" of lower income countries having a much greater proportion of female software developers. I don't think either of these is particularly strong evidence, but including and then dismissing them would have been more convincing than pretending they don't exist.
- KirinDave 7y ago
  Don't worry. 800 Jordan Peterson fans will emerge from the woodwork using his same tactic of arguing one thing and saying it presents an causality argument for another thing. I am sure they'll get the message across.

Johnny555 7y ago

She follows up that it is "established fact" that the "specific types of thought process and problem solving required for engineering of all kinds (software or otherwise) are simply less prevalent among women" I'd like to see where she got this "established fact". Many of the early computer pioneers were women, and many of the early human "computers" were also women. I've known some extremely talented female software engineers (and some mediocre ones), and well as some extremely talented male software engineers (and some mediocre ones). But, I've met many many more male engineers than female which I believe is because more females are discouraged from entering the field by society. Since this trend seems to be changing, it will be interesting to see in a decade or two if the field becomes more balanced.

randiantech 7y ago
https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/political-correctness/the-gender-scandal-part-one-scandinavia-and-part-two-canada/ https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/political-correctness/the-ge...
- tomlock 7y ago
  For years Mr. Peterson has criticised people as being Marxists but didn't read the Communist Manifesto until about two weeks ago. I'm not sure he's best positioned to offer commentary on complex topics like this one.
  - shard972 7y ago
    Then who is? Ben shaprio?
    - tornadon 7y ago
      Both are hacks.
  - RandomInteger4 7y ago
    That is a lie. He said he read it in preparation, because he hadn't read it in a while.

neilv 7y ago

This keeps happening. When someone says things like, "Women overall aren't as good at programming", rather than responding, "There's no evidence of that" (and then they argue that, or quietly simmer with resentment that will keep bubbling up), I'm wondering whether it's better to respond, "What do you think that generalization sounds like to your colleagues who are women, and to women and girls considering the many careers and activities involving programming?" There are other discussions to have, and some of the problems seem very difficult, but maybe starting with a bit more sensitivity, and respecting that, will help make progress on the problems. (FWIW, when I started as a teen intern at a real software engineering company, half of my team was female. The women included: one with a math degree, who developed a fancy code path instrumentation tool for embedded systems, which integrated with our technical workstation software; one who we'd hired away from working on supercomputer compilers, to develop a language reverse-engineering tool; one who was an EE; one who was an MS and published on a technical computer graphics method; one who was a database expert with published research. The women all were comparable to the men, who also weren't slouches (other than me, who was just an enthusiastic but know-little intern). Everyone was supportive, and worked together well, and there were technical debates and people confident of their ideas, but no strutting. How that is not the norm today, I could venture some guesses, but regardless, I don't see a good reason it can't be the norm.) Edit: While I typed that comment, the post was marked a dup (without a link to whatever it's a dup of), and has dropped off the front page. Sigh.

RickJWagner 7y ago

I started work in IT in 1990. I do remember more female programmers at the time. (Of all pay grades, some senior programmers.) At the same time, I believe the female mind thinks differently than the male mind. This is confirmed several times daily as I interact with my dear wife. (This is not to say that either brain is superior for programming. I don't believe this is true. They are just different.)