7 ms·

+1 for taming the addictive nature of social media. -1000 for trying to do this with age-based restrictions. Kids will get around it. Kids SHOULD get around it

+1 for taming the addictive nature of social media. -1000 for trying to do this with age-based restrictions. Kids will get around it. Kids SHOULD get around it. Gating content based on age does. not. work. Source: every teenage kid ever.

cirgue 7y ago
Also, the notion that dark UI patterns are exploitative of teenagers but acceptable for adults is ridiculous. Plenty of adults are just as (if not more-so) vulnerable to these things than kids.
- L_226 7y ago
  The same holds true for e.g. smoking. The idea is to prevent exposure to the still developing brain (psuedo-arbitrarily defined as under 18), and that exposure after this age is purely an informed descision by a consenting adult. Should legislation require that __all__ exploitative mechanisms be banned forever?
  - chaosite 7y ago
    Yes. See? Ask an easy question, get an easy answer.
    - izzydata 7y ago
      I agree, but good luck defining it. You will also get the hordes of people defending their right to be exploited.
      - dustinmoris 7y ago
        This will only be a temporary issue which will disappear with the generation which will resist the most. Most behavioural changes and changes to the norm just need to wait until the first generation dies out and to all subsequent generations this will be the only norm they ever knew. A great example is smoking in public places in Europe. The people who think this restricts their freedom is slowly disappearing. Most young people and new generations find it normal that smoking in public places is prohibited and they would resist if someone was to try to change that now.
        wilsonrocks 7y ago
        It definitely sounds odd to my younger colleagues when I explain what it was like when people smoked in pubs by default. There may be a difference here in that lots of people disliked smoking/smokers/their clothes smelling after going to a pub, perhaps more than there are who dislike the concept of facebook likes manipulating their behaviour more than they like the rewards that likes bring them.
    - mruts 7y ago
      An easy wrong answer.
    - tokyodude 7y ago
      Guess HN needs to banned then. Their news feed is designed to exploit my need for novelty and it works. I'm here far more than I should be. I guess I should expect the government to regulate HN to save me from it's exploitative patterns
      - ozzyman700 7y ago
        noprocrast is a nice setting
        meruru 7y ago
        noprocrast only prevents you from posting
      - Barrin92 7y ago
        I don't see it to be honest. The website is plain and simple, downvotes are capped, the scores are not visible. I spent significantly less time here than on other forms of social media, and I never feel glued to the website. What part of the HN design appears to you exploitative? It's much more like an old school web forum than a gamified social website.
        megous 7y ago
        Scores are visible, on your own posts, and total karma next to your name. I could do without, tbh.
    - chlvsl 7y ago
      How would you implement that? What defines exploitative behavior?
  - cirgue 7y ago
    I don’t think that any business that makes money by taking advantage of people’s foolishness or stupidity has any particular moral right to be free from regulation. Caveat emptor and all that, but if you cause enough damage to enough people, it stops being an individual’s problem and starts being society’s problem. We’re 100% there with social media.
    - FussyZeus 7y ago
      > I don’t think that any business that makes money by taking advantage of people’s foolishness or stupidity I think this is a touch unfair to people at large. The common end user isn't keen enough to recognize dark patterns, that's true, but that's akin to saying that the average car buyer should be able to spot flaws in a vehicle that could cause them harm. We don't expect that from people; Car companies are mandated to only sell vehicles that meet safety requirements. And even then, it's generally accepted that when you're buying a used vehicle, you take it to a mechanic you trust to make sure it's well cared for and operational. Same as when you buy a home; you're expected to have it inspected. It's also unfair, I think, to put people down as foolish or stupid for not immediately recognizing things that are psychological tricks companies use in marketing, to steer users towards the options they want the users to choose. I mean caveat emptor indeed, but to say that, for example fast food marketers holding PHD's in psychological studies, working day in and out to get people to be hungry anytime they see a McDonalds logo are on an even playing field with Joe Consumer is a laughable assertion on it's face. In the days of yore, marketing was just trying to sell someone something but it's become much more insidious since those innocent times. Now companies use dark patterns in their applications, purposely bury privacy and security options under layers of confusing UI, use all manor of colors and fonts shown to steer people's attention to the goal they want, on and on. This is why I find it so unethical, it feels a hell of a lot less like marketing and lot more like "hacking" a person's brain to get into their wallet. tl:dr; Joe Consumer is playing checkers, and marketing scientists are playing 3D chess. He doesn't stand a chance and everyone just keeps acting like that's okay.
      - ozim 7y ago
        Not a parent poster, but I think main point still holds. Maybe I would state it differently. Even if you say 'taking advantage of limited cognitive ability of people' which is true, because everyone is busy, having life problems and is bombarded with all that crap. It makes people stupid, and that is not something to say about particular person. So second part is about making damage while taking advantage of that created stupidity, which is the same as thieves taking advantage of someone after 12 hour trip. People get tired and do stupid things like not watching their luggage. That is the same as taking advantage of online tiredness, it is also foolishness. Marketing with McDonalds does not make people hungry, that is of course not the way it works. But when people are hungry and see McDonalds logo, they don't think about alternatives but just go for that option. I fell for that multiple times, when I am tired, I am not going to search for some small restaurant that can have better food. It can turn out that there is one, but food is total crap, so I am not taking chances but going for McD. Getting me tired and hungry to pay them money is taking advantage of my temporary stupidity and foolishness. They have scale and are everywhere so it might look innocent.
  - default-kramer 7y ago
    That's not a fair comparison because some people want to smoke. No one wants to be the victim of dark UI patterns. No one wants "share all my data by default please." No one wants to click on a deceptive ad that looks like the download button.
    - JeremyBanks 7y ago
      Many users "want" the "streak" features as a way to signalling their commitment to their social relationship with another individual, which is the feature this article is about.
      - celticninja 7y ago
        No, what they want is the dopamine rush they get from it. Something it seems they were trained to like, similar to lab rats.
    - jrace 7y ago
      They want to smoke, but most do not want cancer, emphysema or to have there house burn down because there adulterated cigarette has been manufactured knowingly in a way that increases those risks.
  - darkpuma 7y ago
    The only sane arguments against banning tobacco entirely are related to organized crime. I assert that there is no risk of cartels re-implementing the dark patterns of facebook. This libertarian rhetorical meme of reducing every instance of proposed regulation to ineffectual drug wars needs to die.
- IanCal 7y ago
  > Also, the notion that dark UI patterns are exploitative of teenagers but acceptable for adults is ridiculous. That's not what the ICO is saying though, they're just saying that there are more restrictions if you're dealing with kids.
edejong 7y ago
It does not matter whether kids can circumvent the restrictions. This is all about providing future legal action banning persuasive techniques used on children. Now: sue tobacco companies coercing children using targeted advertisings. Future: sue social media companies coercing children using persuasive techniques. Question is: could insufficient age restriction methods hold companies liable?
strainer 7y ago
I don't agree with that statement for "every teenage kid ever". Most kids appreciate separation from adult attention and accompanying concerns, responsibilities, passions, conflicts... When a boundary is set at 18, its true that many youths approaching that age will look with great interest beyond it. But child friendly networks are important and valuable to children, while they can be children.
snarf21 7y ago
So true. I was surprised to learn that kids are using the "commenting" feature in Google Docs to message each other in class in a way that they don't get caught using their phones. This laws can't have teeth unless they're specific and people will just invent new things and paths don't violate the law. If parents are worried, they should worry more about their own kids and parenting them the way they'd like.
aetherson 7y ago
Also, these kinds of ultra-detailed technocratic rules tend to be bureaucratic disasters. The UK government is now going to be going feature-by-feature of every social media system and deciding whether it should be age-gated?
areyouseriousxx 7y ago
What you are saying is essentially that all restrictions based on age are invalid because some people will manage to circumvent those rules. We have significant, long term, data that age restrictions reduced the use of alcohol and tobacco. What has changed, in the modern era of internet age restrictions, is that the enforcement of age restrictions online has been reduced. For example, online pornography has massive numbers of users under 18, but there has been little enforcement by law enforcement agencies. The solution is quite simple. If a person under the age of 18 is in possession of an application that is prohibited for minors and the company that creates that application fails to verify their age, then the company should face criminal charges, just like we do with tobacco and alcohol. To say that age restrictions do not work is to ignore almost a century of public policy.
- sli 7y ago
  > We have significant, long term, data that age restrictions reduced the use of alcohol and tobacco. Asking for a user's age and giving a dropdown that lets the user select any age they like is in no way comparable to checking an actual government-issued ID.
  - anthonypasq 7y ago
    thats his entire point
- AJ007 7y ago
  Not sure what country you live in, but in the US only someone who gave or sold the alcohol/tobacco to a minor would get in trouble.
  - areyouseriousxx 7y ago
    Correct, but in the case of a website or a phone application, the producer of the application or website is also the provider. There is no reason why a pornography site could not be held criminally responsible for distributing pornography to minors. The way we enforce this with alcohol and tobacco is that law enforcement runs a test were they attempt to purchase alcohol or tobacco from a store with a minor. Law enforcement can run a similar process where they attempt to access pornography(or other age restricted content) and if the site or application fails to restrict usage, apply crimial charges. There is certainly public debate as to if we should use age restrictions on certain features of Facebook, but to say that enforcement is impossible, seems to contradict the data we have with other age restrictions.
T-hawk 7y ago
Gating content based on age isn't really about preventing access to it. Gating content (on most any basis) is more about blame-deflecting and CYA: make sure you're not the one to be fingered as the responsible party when the "they should have done something!" hysteria hits.
- beatgammit 7y ago
  Which is stupid. If something is for adults only, require payment or something. Afaik, you can't get a debit or credit card under 18 without parental approval, so this should lie firmly on the shoulders of parents. However, parents don't like getting blamed for being bad parents. If my child gets access to adult only stuff, that's my fault.
dec0dedab0de 7y ago
-1000 for trying to do this with age-based restrictions. Kids will get around it. Kids SHOULD get around it. Gating content based on age does. not. work. Source: every teenage kid ever My 12 year old son was helping his 10 year cousin set up Pokemon Go and he told him to just put anything in the year until it works. Heck when I was 8 my 10 year old friend and I used to guess the leisure suit larry questions. There is really no way to fix this, without creating some kind of goverment id system tied to biometrics, followed by the plot of any dystopian scifi.
- adzm 7y ago
  I told the truth in Pokemon Go and now I can't battle or befriend or send gifts to my under-13 daughter :(
  - crunchiebones 7y ago
    now all the creeps will have to lie and pretend to be under-13 when they want to befriend or send gifts to your daughter :(
meruru 7y ago
I think getting around things like age restrictions and parent supervision is an important experience growing up, but I'm afraid kids these days are less adept with computers than their parents and won't be able to. I know one 14yo who complains about not being able to see restricted content on youtube and also believes her parents can see her history even if she erases it. Just because you were able to do it when you were a kid, doesn't mean other kids will be able to. You're posting on HN with a "linuxasheviller" handle, that makes you an outlier.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  > believes her parents can see her history even if she erases it she's not necessarily wrong if her parents are tech savvy. many routers can save recent web history if you enable it. she could use a VPN of course.
  - meruru 7y ago
    They aren't. She thinks they must have installed something in the computer. To be clear, I didn't mean to imply she's wrong. She may have good reason to believe that, but I haven't inquired further, just offered to teach her to install Linux.
oarabbus_ 7y ago
> Gating content based on age does. not. work. Source: every teenage kid ever. Do you mean to suggest that you too knew kids who falsely clicked "over 18" when visiting pornographic websites?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
Angostura 7y ago
These measures are being proposed because by law in the UK, under 18s cannot have their data used for commercial targetting. The obvious solution is for the companies to ensure that under 18s data isn't used this way. I will certainly start signing up to all services as a 16 year old.

cirgue 7y ago

Also, the notion that dark UI patterns are exploitative of teenagers but acceptable for adults is ridiculous. Plenty of adults are just as (if not more-so) vulnerable to these things than kids.

L_226 7y ago
The same holds true for e.g. smoking. The idea is to prevent exposure to the still developing brain (psuedo-arbitrarily defined as under 18), and that exposure after this age is purely an informed descision by a consenting adult. Should legislation require that __all__ exploitative mechanisms be banned forever?
- chaosite 7y ago
  Yes. See? Ask an easy question, get an easy answer.
  - izzydata 7y ago
    I agree, but good luck defining it. You will also get the hordes of people defending their right to be exploited.
    - dustinmoris 7y ago
      This will only be a temporary issue which will disappear with the generation which will resist the most. Most behavioural changes and changes to the norm just need to wait until the first generation dies out and to all subsequent generations this will be the only norm they ever knew. A great example is smoking in public places in Europe. The people who think this restricts their freedom is slowly disappearing. Most young people and new generations find it normal that smoking in public places is prohibited and they would resist if someone was to try to change that now.
      - wilsonrocks 7y ago
        It definitely sounds odd to my younger colleagues when I explain what it was like when people smoked in pubs by default. There may be a difference here in that lots of people disliked smoking/smokers/their clothes smelling after going to a pub, perhaps more than there are who dislike the concept of facebook likes manipulating their behaviour more than they like the rewards that likes bring them.
  - mruts 7y ago
    An easy wrong answer.
  - tokyodude 7y ago
    Guess HN needs to banned then. Their news feed is designed to exploit my need for novelty and it works. I'm here far more than I should be. I guess I should expect the government to regulate HN to save me from it's exploitative patterns
    - ozzyman700 7y ago
      noprocrast is a nice setting
      - meruru 7y ago
        noprocrast only prevents you from posting
    - Barrin92 7y ago
      I don't see it to be honest. The website is plain and simple, downvotes are capped, the scores are not visible. I spent significantly less time here than on other forms of social media, and I never feel glued to the website. What part of the HN design appears to you exploitative? It's much more like an old school web forum than a gamified social website.
      - megous 7y ago
        Scores are visible, on your own posts, and total karma next to your name. I could do without, tbh.
  - chlvsl 7y ago
    How would you implement that? What defines exploitative behavior?
- cirgue 7y ago
  I don’t think that any business that makes money by taking advantage of people’s foolishness or stupidity has any particular moral right to be free from regulation. Caveat emptor and all that, but if you cause enough damage to enough people, it stops being an individual’s problem and starts being society’s problem. We’re 100% there with social media.
  - FussyZeus 7y ago
    > I don’t think that any business that makes money by taking advantage of people’s foolishness or stupidity I think this is a touch unfair to people at large. The common end user isn't keen enough to recognize dark patterns, that's true, but that's akin to saying that the average car buyer should be able to spot flaws in a vehicle that could cause them harm. We don't expect that from people; Car companies are mandated to only sell vehicles that meet safety requirements. And even then, it's generally accepted that when you're buying a used vehicle, you take it to a mechanic you trust to make sure it's well cared for and operational. Same as when you buy a home; you're expected to have it inspected. It's also unfair, I think, to put people down as foolish or stupid for not immediately recognizing things that are psychological tricks companies use in marketing, to steer users towards the options they want the users to choose. I mean caveat emptor indeed, but to say that, for example fast food marketers holding PHD's in psychological studies, working day in and out to get people to be hungry anytime they see a McDonalds logo are on an even playing field with Joe Consumer is a laughable assertion on it's face. In the days of yore, marketing was just trying to sell someone something but it's become much more insidious since those innocent times. Now companies use dark patterns in their applications, purposely bury privacy and security options under layers of confusing UI, use all manor of colors and fonts shown to steer people's attention to the goal they want, on and on. This is why I find it so unethical, it feels a hell of a lot less like marketing and lot more like "hacking" a person's brain to get into their wallet. tl:dr; Joe Consumer is playing checkers, and marketing scientists are playing 3D chess. He doesn't stand a chance and everyone just keeps acting like that's okay.
    - ozim 7y ago
      Not a parent poster, but I think main point still holds. Maybe I would state it differently. Even if you say 'taking advantage of limited cognitive ability of people' which is true, because everyone is busy, having life problems and is bombarded with all that crap. It makes people stupid, and that is not something to say about particular person. So second part is about making damage while taking advantage of that created stupidity, which is the same as thieves taking advantage of someone after 12 hour trip. People get tired and do stupid things like not watching their luggage. That is the same as taking advantage of online tiredness, it is also foolishness. Marketing with McDonalds does not make people hungry, that is of course not the way it works. But when people are hungry and see McDonalds logo, they don't think about alternatives but just go for that option. I fell for that multiple times, when I am tired, I am not going to search for some small restaurant that can have better food. It can turn out that there is one, but food is total crap, so I am not taking chances but going for McD. Getting me tired and hungry to pay them money is taking advantage of my temporary stupidity and foolishness. They have scale and are everywhere so it might look innocent.
- default-kramer 7y ago
  That's not a fair comparison because some people want to smoke. No one wants to be the victim of dark UI patterns. No one wants "share all my data by default please." No one wants to click on a deceptive ad that looks like the download button.
  - JeremyBanks 7y ago
    Many users "want" the "streak" features as a way to signalling their commitment to their social relationship with another individual, which is the feature this article is about.
    - celticninja 7y ago
      No, what they want is the dopamine rush they get from it. Something it seems they were trained to like, similar to lab rats.
  - jrace 7y ago
    They want to smoke, but most do not want cancer, emphysema or to have there house burn down because there adulterated cigarette has been manufactured knowingly in a way that increases those risks.
- darkpuma 7y ago
  The only sane arguments against banning tobacco entirely are related to organized crime. I assert that there is no risk of cartels re-implementing the dark patterns of facebook. This libertarian rhetorical meme of reducing every instance of proposed regulation to ineffectual drug wars needs to die.
IanCal 7y ago
> Also, the notion that dark UI patterns are exploitative of teenagers but acceptable for adults is ridiculous. That's not what the ICO is saying though, they're just saying that there are more restrictions if you're dealing with kids.

edejong 7y ago

It does not matter whether kids can circumvent the restrictions. This is all about providing future legal action banning persuasive techniques used on children. Now: sue tobacco companies coercing children using targeted advertisings. Future: sue social media companies coercing children using persuasive techniques. Question is: could insufficient age restriction methods hold companies liable?

strainer 7y ago

I don't agree with that statement for "every teenage kid ever". Most kids appreciate separation from adult attention and accompanying concerns, responsibilities, passions, conflicts... When a boundary is set at 18, its true that many youths approaching that age will look with great interest beyond it. But child friendly networks are important and valuable to children, while they can be children.

snarf21 7y ago

So true. I was surprised to learn that kids are using the "commenting" feature in Google Docs to message each other in class in a way that they don't get caught using their phones. This laws can't have teeth unless they're specific and people will just invent new things and paths don't violate the law. If parents are worried, they should worry more about their own kids and parenting them the way they'd like.

aetherson 7y ago

Also, these kinds of ultra-detailed technocratic rules tend to be bureaucratic disasters. The UK government is now going to be going feature-by-feature of every social media system and deciding whether it should be age-gated?

areyouseriousxx 7y ago

What you are saying is essentially that all restrictions based on age are invalid because some people will manage to circumvent those rules. We have significant, long term, data that age restrictions reduced the use of alcohol and tobacco. What has changed, in the modern era of internet age restrictions, is that the enforcement of age restrictions online has been reduced. For example, online pornography has massive numbers of users under 18, but there has been little enforcement by law enforcement agencies. The solution is quite simple. If a person under the age of 18 is in possession of an application that is prohibited for minors and the company that creates that application fails to verify their age, then the company should face criminal charges, just like we do with tobacco and alcohol. To say that age restrictions do not work is to ignore almost a century of public policy.

sli 7y ago
> We have significant, long term, data that age restrictions reduced the use of alcohol and tobacco. Asking for a user's age and giving a dropdown that lets the user select any age they like is in no way comparable to checking an actual government-issued ID.
- anthonypasq 7y ago
  thats his entire point
AJ007 7y ago
Not sure what country you live in, but in the US only someone who gave or sold the alcohol/tobacco to a minor would get in trouble.
- areyouseriousxx 7y ago
  Correct, but in the case of a website or a phone application, the producer of the application or website is also the provider. There is no reason why a pornography site could not be held criminally responsible for distributing pornography to minors. The way we enforce this with alcohol and tobacco is that law enforcement runs a test were they attempt to purchase alcohol or tobacco from a store with a minor. Law enforcement can run a similar process where they attempt to access pornography(or other age restricted content) and if the site or application fails to restrict usage, apply crimial charges. There is certainly public debate as to if we should use age restrictions on certain features of Facebook, but to say that enforcement is impossible, seems to contradict the data we have with other age restrictions.

T-hawk 7y ago

Gating content based on age isn't really about preventing access to it. Gating content (on most any basis) is more about blame-deflecting and CYA: make sure you're not the one to be fingered as the responsible party when the "they should have done something!" hysteria hits.

beatgammit 7y ago
Which is stupid. If something is for adults only, require payment or something. Afaik, you can't get a debit or credit card under 18 without parental approval, so this should lie firmly on the shoulders of parents. However, parents don't like getting blamed for being bad parents. If my child gets access to adult only stuff, that's my fault.

dec0dedab0de 7y ago

-1000 for trying to do this with age-based restrictions. Kids will get around it. Kids SHOULD get around it. Gating content based on age does. not. work. Source: every teenage kid ever My 12 year old son was helping his 10 year cousin set up Pokemon Go and he told him to just put anything in the year until it works. Heck when I was 8 my 10 year old friend and I used to guess the leisure suit larry questions. There is really no way to fix this, without creating some kind of goverment id system tied to biometrics, followed by the plot of any dystopian scifi.

adzm 7y ago
I told the truth in Pokemon Go and now I can't battle or befriend or send gifts to my under-13 daughter :(
- crunchiebones 7y ago
  now all the creeps will have to lie and pretend to be under-13 when they want to befriend or send gifts to your daughter :(

meruru 7y ago

I think getting around things like age restrictions and parent supervision is an important experience growing up, but I'm afraid kids these days are less adept with computers than their parents and won't be able to. I know one 14yo who complains about not being able to see restricted content on youtube and also believes her parents can see her history even if she erases it. Just because you were able to do it when you were a kid, doesn't mean other kids will be able to. You're posting on HN with a "linuxasheviller" handle, that makes you an outlier.

leetcrew 7y ago
> believes her parents can see her history even if she erases it she's not necessarily wrong if her parents are tech savvy. many routers can save recent web history if you enable it. she could use a VPN of course.
- meruru 7y ago
  They aren't. She thinks they must have installed something in the computer. To be clear, I didn't mean to imply she's wrong. She may have good reason to believe that, but I haven't inquired further, just offered to teach her to install Linux.

oarabbus_ 7y ago

> Gating content based on age does. not. work. Source: every teenage kid ever. Do you mean to suggest that you too knew kids who falsely clicked "over 18" when visiting pornographic websites?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

Angostura 7y ago

These measures are being proposed because by law in the UK, under 18s cannot have their data used for commercial targetting. The obvious solution is for the companies to ensure that under 18s data isn't used this way. I will certainly start signing up to all services as a 16 year old.