5 ms·

> What part of the first amendment exonerates knowingly attempting to crack NTLM keys of US military logins? Is doing math a form of expression? Breaking a pa

> What part of the first amendment exonerates knowingly attempting to crack NTLM keys of US military logins? Is doing math a form of expression? Breaking a password amounts to thinking for a very long time about all the ways you could rearrange some bits, and choosing one. I'd call it an expression of preference for certain possible results over others, by way of saving one and letting the rest go. I know, I'm laughing at the thought of framing a cracked password because you're so proud of your expressive art. Still, I am deeply uncomfortable with a government having the authority to say, "You may not run that program."

henryfjordan 7y ago
You're welcome to crack the password and frame it on your wall. Using or intending to use it is the crime. The state would have to argue your intent to log into their computers and you'd have the chance to respond. The jury would decide whether you meant to gain unauthorized access to a computer system or just geeked out over password cracking. Practically, I could see things going poorly for the over-enthusiastic cracker, but theoretically they'd be within their rights.
belltaco 7y ago
>Is doing math a form of expression? Breaking a password amounts to thinking for a very long time about all the ways you could rearrange some bits, and choosing one. I'd call it an expression of preference for certain possible results over others, by way of saving one and letting the rest go. Isn't shooting a gun at someone a matter of depressing a lever? It's about applying pressure on a lever with your finger. >Still, I am deeply uncomfortable with a government having the authority to say, "You may not run that program." Are you also deeply uncomfortable with a government having the authority to say "You may not press that lever". Isn't the US firing nukes a matter of the US president entering numbers and pressing some buttons? Isn't running into and maiming a pedestrian while driving a car at a traffic crossing a matter of actually doing nothing instead of braking? Are you deeply uncomfortable with the thought of govt jailing you for literally doing nothing?
- thanatos_dem 7y ago
  > Are you deeply uncomfortable with the thought of govt jailing you for literally doing nothing? Yes? I’d be concerned for anyone who isn’t. And to be clear... he didn’t crack it. I’ve run password hashes through rainbow tables for shits and giggles. Should I be dragged out of an embassy next?
  - rocqua 7y ago
    How did you get those hashes? What did you (intend to) do with the resulting passwords. Luckily, intent still counts for something legally.
  - belltaco 7y ago
    Sorry if I was unclear, that quote is in continuance of the earlier line, full argument: >Isn't running into and maiming a pedestrian while driving a car at a traffic crossing a matter of actually doing nothing instead of braking? Are you deeply uncomfortable with the thought of govt jailing you for literally doing nothing? >And to be clear... he didn’t crack it. Attempting to commit a crime is a crime even if you failed at it. >I’ve run password hashes through rainbow tables for shits and giggles. Should I be dragged out of an embassy next? People shoot at the range all the time but are not prosecuted. But gun murderers are. Dont you see the difference? Were you cracking an Administrator password of the United States Military protecting classified war logs with an intent to distribute them to the public?
    - roguecoder 7y ago
      Just because we don’t usually get prosecuted for something doesn’t make it legal.
      - Nasrudith 7y ago
        But that usually means there is a problem with the law in either enforcement(insufficient or only existing to be abused via selective enforcement) or basis(it shouldn't be illegal in the first place).
roguecoder 7y ago
IANAL, but math is explicitly exempted from copyright law, so “art” wouldn’t apply. As for the more general “expression”, running a program is a function: it transforms one thing into another thing in a deterministic way. That is applying a tool: you would have to argue that the thing you were doing with it, in this case “breaking a password”, was expression, which, well, good luck with that one: you are back to trying to argue that an explicit crime is actually performance art. All of this is just facts and tools: there is no creativity involved at any stage.

henryfjordan 7y ago

You're welcome to crack the password and frame it on your wall. Using or intending to use it is the crime. The state would have to argue your intent to log into their computers and you'd have the chance to respond. The jury would decide whether you meant to gain unauthorized access to a computer system or just geeked out over password cracking. Practically, I could see things going poorly for the over-enthusiastic cracker, but theoretically they'd be within their rights.

belltaco 7y ago

>Is doing math a form of expression? Breaking a password amounts to thinking for a very long time about all the ways you could rearrange some bits, and choosing one. I'd call it an expression of preference for certain possible results over others, by way of saving one and letting the rest go. Isn't shooting a gun at someone a matter of depressing a lever? It's about applying pressure on a lever with your finger. >Still, I am deeply uncomfortable with a government having the authority to say, "You may not run that program." Are you also deeply uncomfortable with a government having the authority to say "You may not press that lever". Isn't the US firing nukes a matter of the US president entering numbers and pressing some buttons? Isn't running into and maiming a pedestrian while driving a car at a traffic crossing a matter of actually doing nothing instead of braking? Are you deeply uncomfortable with the thought of govt jailing you for literally doing nothing?

thanatos_dem 7y ago
> Are you deeply uncomfortable with the thought of govt jailing you for literally doing nothing? Yes? I’d be concerned for anyone who isn’t. And to be clear... he didn’t crack it. I’ve run password hashes through rainbow tables for shits and giggles. Should I be dragged out of an embassy next?
- rocqua 7y ago
  How did you get those hashes? What did you (intend to) do with the resulting passwords. Luckily, intent still counts for something legally.
- belltaco 7y ago
  Sorry if I was unclear, that quote is in continuance of the earlier line, full argument: >Isn't running into and maiming a pedestrian while driving a car at a traffic crossing a matter of actually doing nothing instead of braking? Are you deeply uncomfortable with the thought of govt jailing you for literally doing nothing? >And to be clear... he didn’t crack it. Attempting to commit a crime is a crime even if you failed at it. >I’ve run password hashes through rainbow tables for shits and giggles. Should I be dragged out of an embassy next? People shoot at the range all the time but are not prosecuted. But gun murderers are. Dont you see the difference? Were you cracking an Administrator password of the United States Military protecting classified war logs with an intent to distribute them to the public?
  - roguecoder 7y ago
    Just because we don’t usually get prosecuted for something doesn’t make it legal.
    - Nasrudith 7y ago
      But that usually means there is a problem with the law in either enforcement(insufficient or only existing to be abused via selective enforcement) or basis(it shouldn't be illegal in the first place).

roguecoder 7y ago

IANAL, but math is explicitly exempted from copyright law, so “art” wouldn’t apply. As for the more general “expression”, running a program is a function: it transforms one thing into another thing in a deterministic way. That is applying a tool: you would have to argue that the thing you were doing with it, in this case “breaking a password”, was expression, which, well, good luck with that one: you are back to trying to argue that an explicit crime is actually performance art. All of this is just facts and tools: there is no creativity involved at any stage.