8 ms·

Diablo is orders of magnitude less successful than Fortnite (or even Overwatch, by the same company), and I'd argue the reason is exactly what you are talking a

Diablo is orders of magnitude less successful than Fortnite (or even Overwatch, by the same company), and I'd argue the reason is exactly what you are talking about: it's just not a very good game and the things you can get out of it just aren't that valuable. Overwhelmingly people choose more teamwork based, deeply social games. This is what the numbers say. A second premise I want to address is the idea that using games (or movies or books or whatever) as a mind numbing distraction is a waste of time or the fault of the escape itself. Tons of people are dealing with really intense trauma, and it's not really clear that there really is a better short term alternative for stress management. I think if people are doing things like slashing monsters for 100 hours in Diablo don't look at Diablo, look at what's going on in the rest of their life. Because you can take away Diablo, but you if you aren't fixing what makes them play a shitty game as a distraction for 100 hours you haven't really helped them at all. Finally: tons of people run pathologically. I mean basically anyone who is serious about the sport does more damage to themselves than is necessary, and runs far more than the optimal amount. I don't think running is exactly the same as gaming, but it's worth examining why we as a culture have no problem discussing Larry's second hip replacement from running 10 miles a day but tremble when discussing Larry's son's 10th hour this week playing Fortnite.

throwawaymath 7y ago
> Finally: tons of people run pathologically. I mean basically anyone who is serious about the sport does more damage to themselves than is necessary, and runs far more than the optimal amount. I don't think running is exactly the same as gaming, but it's worth examining why we as a culture have no problem discussing Larry's second hip replacement from running 10 miles a day but tremble when discussing Larry's son's 10th hour this week playing Fortnite. Speaking as someone who runs quite a lot, I would be very interested in seeing you quantify this point and cite supporting research. In particular, I am skeptical you can find a peer reviewed study which suggests there exists a causal link between running n miles per day and requiring hip replacements later in life. Likewise, what is the "optimal amount" of running you speak of? And for what purpose is that amount optimal? To put it bluntly I think you're choosing the wrong activity for the "you can get addicted to anything" argument. I don't have an issue with that idea in the abstract, but I think you'll have a very difficult time mounting a persuasive argument using the idea that most serious runners are "pathological" - unless, of course, you presuppose the idea that doing things pathologically isn't unhealthy. EDIT: Here is a study which directly contradicts your claim about excessive running and hip replacement[1]. The ~75,000 respondents under study demonstrated a reduced risk for osteoarthritis and hip replacement. _____________________ 1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23377837/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23377837/
- wdewind 7y ago
  I mean pathological from a death avoidance stand point. For instance, if you are a marathon runner you are running far more than is necessary to contribute to a longer life span. I'm not a runner, but as a weight lifter I lift far more weight than is necessary to contribute to injury or death avoidance. That is the nature of sport. I don't know any old athletes who don't have pretty banged up bodies. I don't have peer reviewed research about hip replacement and number of miles per day, that comment was a bit more rhetorical than the way you are engaging with it, but I can give you peer reviewed evidence for heart damage: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3119133/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3119133/
  - throwawaymath 7y ago
    That's a fair citation, however it comes with a caveat: while myocardial fibrosis (MF) is traditionally associated with an increased risk for arrhythmia and cardiac arrest due to muscle stiffness, this association is less clear in runners. The overall relationship between running and cardiac health is extremely positive, and more recent[1] research from the Mayo Clinic does not make the claim that MF incidence in high endurance athletes specifically indicates the same danger it does in non-active individuals. It treats it as an under-studied phenomenon to be sure, but calling it "damage" is not nuanced enough given the available data. __________ 1. https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(16)30414-1/fulltext https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(16)...
    - wdewind 7y ago
      Sure I can buy all that, but It's Complicated, and I'm sure you know some runners who are running when they shouldn't be. For instance, I know of someone who had both hips replaced at the age of 25. This was probably primarily due to a genetic predisposition to developing OA, but the earliness and extremity of the onset were obviously impacted by excessive (5-10 miles 2x a day) running, which she continued against doctors orders. I'm not trying to damn an entire hobby: my point is exactly the opposite. People cope with being alive in a variety of ways, and most of those ways hurt you if not kept in balance. We shouldn't vilify video games just like we shouldn't vilify running.
greiskul 7y ago
You are 100% right in that it is the social aspects of games is where people spend most of their time. When I decided to slow down the amount of time playing games, by restricting myself to either single player games (that once you are finished you are done with it) or multiplayer games where I wouldn't communicate with other people, I just don't have as much of an urge to play as I used to. Even people that devote incredible amount of times to single player games, for instance, speed runners, the fact is that there is a community around doing that. Without that community, there would be way less people speedrunning.
MRD85 7y ago
I lost around 2.5 years to World of Warcraft, I'm talking 12-14 hours per day over that period. This is over a decade ago and my mum still talks about the wasted time and she hates the name of that game. She doesn't realise that without that escape I wasn't far off suicide. That addiction gave me enough time to sort out my life and figure things out. I'm in my 30's now and I truly love my life and I have for a number of years.
- wdewind 7y ago
  Thanks for sharing and glad to hear you're doing better now. > She doesn't realise that without that escape I wasn't far off suicide. That addiction gave me enough time to sort out my life and figure things out. This is huge! I always think about stuff like this when people dismiss "entertainment."
  - MRD85 7y ago
    No worries, I feel it's important to talk about mental health issues. You never know what others are dealing with and sharing might make them see that things can get better.

throwawaymath 7y ago

> Finally: tons of people run pathologically. I mean basically anyone who is serious about the sport does more damage to themselves than is necessary, and runs far more than the optimal amount. I don't think running is exactly the same as gaming, but it's worth examining why we as a culture have no problem discussing Larry's second hip replacement from running 10 miles a day but tremble when discussing Larry's son's 10th hour this week playing Fortnite. Speaking as someone who runs quite a lot, I would be very interested in seeing you quantify this point and cite supporting research. In particular, I am skeptical you can find a peer reviewed study which suggests there exists a causal link between running n miles per day and requiring hip replacements later in life. Likewise, what is the "optimal amount" of running you speak of? And for what purpose is that amount optimal? To put it bluntly I think you're choosing the wrong activity for the "you can get addicted to anything" argument. I don't have an issue with that idea in the abstract, but I think you'll have a very difficult time mounting a persuasive argument using the idea that most serious runners are "pathological" - unless, of course, you presuppose the idea that doing things pathologically isn't unhealthy. EDIT: Here is a study which directly contradicts your claim about excessive running and hip replacement[1]. The ~75,000 respondents under study demonstrated a reduced risk for osteoarthritis and hip replacement. _____________________ 1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23377837/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23377837/

wdewind 7y ago
I mean pathological from a death avoidance stand point. For instance, if you are a marathon runner you are running far more than is necessary to contribute to a longer life span. I'm not a runner, but as a weight lifter I lift far more weight than is necessary to contribute to injury or death avoidance. That is the nature of sport. I don't know any old athletes who don't have pretty banged up bodies. I don't have peer reviewed research about hip replacement and number of miles per day, that comment was a bit more rhetorical than the way you are engaging with it, but I can give you peer reviewed evidence for heart damage: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3119133/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3119133/
- throwawaymath 7y ago
  That's a fair citation, however it comes with a caveat: while myocardial fibrosis (MF) is traditionally associated with an increased risk for arrhythmia and cardiac arrest due to muscle stiffness, this association is less clear in runners. The overall relationship between running and cardiac health is extremely positive, and more recent[1] research from the Mayo Clinic does not make the claim that MF incidence in high endurance athletes specifically indicates the same danger it does in non-active individuals. It treats it as an under-studied phenomenon to be sure, but calling it "damage" is not nuanced enough given the available data. __________ 1. https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(16)30414-1/fulltext https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(16)...
  - wdewind 7y ago
    Sure I can buy all that, but It's Complicated, and I'm sure you know some runners who are running when they shouldn't be. For instance, I know of someone who had both hips replaced at the age of 25. This was probably primarily due to a genetic predisposition to developing OA, but the earliness and extremity of the onset were obviously impacted by excessive (5-10 miles 2x a day) running, which she continued against doctors orders. I'm not trying to damn an entire hobby: my point is exactly the opposite. People cope with being alive in a variety of ways, and most of those ways hurt you if not kept in balance. We shouldn't vilify video games just like we shouldn't vilify running.

greiskul 7y ago

You are 100% right in that it is the social aspects of games is where people spend most of their time. When I decided to slow down the amount of time playing games, by restricting myself to either single player games (that once you are finished you are done with it) or multiplayer games where I wouldn't communicate with other people, I just don't have as much of an urge to play as I used to. Even people that devote incredible amount of times to single player games, for instance, speed runners, the fact is that there is a community around doing that. Without that community, there would be way less people speedrunning.

MRD85 7y ago

I lost around 2.5 years to World of Warcraft, I'm talking 12-14 hours per day over that period. This is over a decade ago and my mum still talks about the wasted time and she hates the name of that game. She doesn't realise that without that escape I wasn't far off suicide. That addiction gave me enough time to sort out my life and figure things out. I'm in my 30's now and I truly love my life and I have for a number of years.

wdewind 7y ago
Thanks for sharing and glad to hear you're doing better now. > She doesn't realise that without that escape I wasn't far off suicide. That addiction gave me enough time to sort out my life and figure things out. This is huge! I always think about stuff like this when people dismiss "entertainment."
- MRD85 7y ago
  No worries, I feel it's important to talk about mental health issues. You never know what others are dealing with and sharing might make them see that things can get better.