5 ms·

> I just wish PopOS was built on Debian and not Ubuntu. why?

bayindirh 8y ago
Since Debian is not built with a commercial interest (Canonical is a corporation at the end), the OS doesn't feel like a "freemium product". As a person who uses Debian for a long time, and Ubuntu for throw-away VMs; Debian feels more "pure" from a system perspective, and it's not just skin deep. Debian is set-up to be a leaner OS out of the box. Everything is within reach, and deeply configurable from command line. Desktop environments are add-ons to the system, not integrated (even in desktop versions). I don't find surprising choices or hard to reach configuration stuff in Debian. Even though derived from Debian, Ubuntu "standard" comes with packages from Amazon, et. al., and sends analytics. This is not something that I like. Also, when I install Ubuntu server, I get subtle ads of "Canonical Landscape" and their paid offerings. This signals me that I'm using a freemium product, and as a user, I'm not their primary focus. Debian is of course sponsored by a lot of corporations, but at the end they are independent and they do as they wish at the end. I'm part of the process, and can talk with devs, and my bug reports and commits are not pre-filtered with "commercial" interests before even discussed. These are my feelings and experiences though. YMMV.
- dleslie 8y ago
  Use Ubuntu MATE and you won't suffer the advertisements, analytics, or Gnome3.
- suby 8y ago
  To be fair, the analytics are opt-in, and they show you the json that gets transmitted prior to sending. It's by far the best implementation of telemetry that I've seen in terms of respecting the user. The thing I think Ubuntu has over Debian is that they package proprietary software, which often means better driver support. Considering System76 is building the computer, though, this is probably not an actual issue.
  - bayindirh 8y ago
    > To be fair, the analytics are opt-in, and they show you the json that gets transmitted prior to sending. IIRC, that visibility is rather new. Nevertheless, it's a step in the right direction. > The thing I think Ubuntu has over Debian is that they package proprietary software. Debian also has the non-free repository for a long time, which contains firmware and drivers. However, building a computer with AMD graphics cards and Intel network adapters rarely needs any big binary blobs, maybe except the firmwares.
- PopsiclePete 8y ago
  FWIW, recent Ubuntu versions support a “minimum” installation. You get vanilla Gnome with Firefox and that’s about it. No LibreOffice, no Amazon anything. Quite lean and nice.
  - bayindirh 8y ago
    That's a nice feature. However, it also shows the stark difference between Debian and Ubuntu rather well. Debian's minimal installation is ~500 package install with no desktop environment and anything. Just a base installation with enough utilities to install the remainder according to requirements.
    - PopsiclePete 8y ago
      For whatever unknown reason suspend/resume was completely broken on my laptop with vanilla Debian and works mostly ok with Ubuntu. Stock XPS 9350 Dev. Edition. Trackpad driver was also the wrong one, but easy to fix. Ubuntu feels more polished out of the box for me on a laptop but a stripped down Debian can’t be beat for servers.
      - bayindirh 8y ago
        > For whatever unknown reason suspend/resume was completely broken on my laptop with vanilla Debian and works mostly ok with Ubuntu. One of the downsides of the Debian is, its stable branch is very slow, and generally very outdated for desktop use. For a more "rolling" and modern release, which is more suitable for desktop/laptop usage, Debian testing is more preferable. While it's called testing, it is as stable as Ubuntu stable. > Ubuntu feels more polished out of the box... That's a fair point, and since Ubuntu is a desktop first bistro, that's expected. > ...a stripped down Debian can’t be beat for servers. When setup right, a Debian box is a set-and-forget it affair. I personally lost a server in the system room since it was working as it should and the hardware didn't die. :D
    - e12e 8y ago
      The equivalent for Ubuntu is Ubuntu server: https://help.ubuntu.com/lts/serverguide/installing-live-server.html.en-GB https://help.ubuntu.com/lts/serverguide/installing-live-serv... Fwiw I agree that the default Ubuntu desktop is a little heavy - but I also realize I'm not the typical target user.
- sian92 8y ago
  System76 Dev here. WRT to Amazon packages and analytics, this is not something we include in Pop_OS. All Pop_OS installs, despite being based on Ubuntu, are free of any type of analytics or other tracking types of software, outside of what is bare-necessary to have a Debian OS. We even switch out the Ubuntu connectivity checking that comes by default with our own, since this service could theoretically be used to log your IP. The server we use for this is controlled by Pop_OS/System76 (whom you need to inherently trust if you're using our software anyway; I technically have root access on any Pop_OS user's computer), and is configured not to store any access logs outside of server-side error messages.

Since Debian is not built with a commercial interest (Canonical is a corporation at the end), the OS doesn't feel like a "freemium product". As a person who uses Debian for a long time, and Ubuntu for throw-away VMs; Debian feels more "pure" from a system perspective, and it's not just skin deep. Debian is set-up to be a leaner OS out of the box. Everything is within reach, and deeply configurable from command line. Desktop environments are add-ons to the system, not integrated (even in desktop versions). I don't find surprising choices or hard to reach configuration stuff in Debian. Even though derived from Debian, Ubuntu "standard" comes with packages from Amazon, et. al., and sends analytics. This is not something that I like. Also, when I install Ubuntu server, I get subtle ads of "Canonical Landscape" and their paid offerings. This signals me that I'm using a freemium product, and as a user, I'm not their primary focus. Debian is of course sponsored by a lot of corporations, but at the end they are independent and they do as they wish at the end. I'm part of the process, and can talk with devs, and my bug reports and commits are not pre-filtered with "commercial" interests before even discussed. These are my feelings and experiences though. YMMV.

dleslie 8y ago
Use Ubuntu MATE and you won't suffer the advertisements, analytics, or Gnome3.
suby 8y ago
To be fair, the analytics are opt-in, and they show you the json that gets transmitted prior to sending. It's by far the best implementation of telemetry that I've seen in terms of respecting the user. The thing I think Ubuntu has over Debian is that they package proprietary software, which often means better driver support. Considering System76 is building the computer, though, this is probably not an actual issue.
- bayindirh 8y ago
  > To be fair, the analytics are opt-in, and they show you the json that gets transmitted prior to sending. IIRC, that visibility is rather new. Nevertheless, it's a step in the right direction. > The thing I think Ubuntu has over Debian is that they package proprietary software. Debian also has the non-free repository for a long time, which contains firmware and drivers. However, building a computer with AMD graphics cards and Intel network adapters rarely needs any big binary blobs, maybe except the firmwares.
PopsiclePete 8y ago
FWIW, recent Ubuntu versions support a “minimum” installation. You get vanilla Gnome with Firefox and that’s about it. No LibreOffice, no Amazon anything. Quite lean and nice.
- bayindirh 8y ago
  That's a nice feature. However, it also shows the stark difference between Debian and Ubuntu rather well. Debian's minimal installation is ~500 package install with no desktop environment and anything. Just a base installation with enough utilities to install the remainder according to requirements.
  - PopsiclePete 8y ago
    For whatever unknown reason suspend/resume was completely broken on my laptop with vanilla Debian and works mostly ok with Ubuntu. Stock XPS 9350 Dev. Edition. Trackpad driver was also the wrong one, but easy to fix. Ubuntu feels more polished out of the box for me on a laptop but a stripped down Debian can’t be beat for servers.
    - bayindirh 8y ago
      > For whatever unknown reason suspend/resume was completely broken on my laptop with vanilla Debian and works mostly ok with Ubuntu. One of the downsides of the Debian is, its stable branch is very slow, and generally very outdated for desktop use. For a more "rolling" and modern release, which is more suitable for desktop/laptop usage, Debian testing is more preferable. While it's called testing, it is as stable as Ubuntu stable. > Ubuntu feels more polished out of the box... That's a fair point, and since Ubuntu is a desktop first bistro, that's expected. > ...a stripped down Debian can’t be beat for servers. When setup right, a Debian box is a set-and-forget it affair. I personally lost a server in the system room since it was working as it should and the hardware didn't die. :D
  - e12e 8y ago
    The equivalent for Ubuntu is Ubuntu server: https://help.ubuntu.com/lts/serverguide/installing-live-server.html.en-GB https://help.ubuntu.com/lts/serverguide/installing-live-serv... Fwiw I agree that the default Ubuntu desktop is a little heavy - but I also realize I'm not the typical target user.
sian92 8y ago
System76 Dev here. WRT to Amazon packages and analytics, this is not something we include in Pop_OS. All Pop_OS installs, despite being based on Ubuntu, are free of any type of analytics or other tracking types of software, outside of what is bare-necessary to have a Debian OS. We even switch out the Ubuntu connectivity checking that comes by default with our own, since this service could theoretically be used to log your IP. The server we use for this is controlled by Pop_OS/System76 (whom you need to inherently trust if you're using our software anyway; I technically have root access on any Pop_OS user's computer), and is configured not to store any access logs outside of server-side error messages.