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Far be it from me to fall into the "everything I don't like is a Russian/Chinese covert action" conspiracy theorizing that is increasingly common these days --

Far be it from me to fall into the "everything I don't like is a Russian/Chinese covert action" conspiracy theorizing that is increasingly common these days -- but if I were an adversarial state actor, I would definitely look into ways of encouraging these sorts of anti-US-military "employee rebellions" in the tech industry. Geopolitics never rests, and an important asset of any nation is its tech industry, both during wartime itself and also in any long-term leadup to conflict. I wonder if the US government has internally analyzed the question of whether, in an increasingly globalized and politically agitating environment, its companies can be counted on to be supportive and/or loyal in the event of conflict.

yyyymmddhhmmss 8y ago
The argument that The United States’ involvements in World War II were so impactful and influential was only possible because of the faith of it’s citizens negotiated by Eisenhower’s New Deal is not new. And an interesting angle of it involves the position that, even if you conclude the US did not actually exhibit expertise, the fact remains that it’s reputation took the credit anyhow. Any of the above would demand a sovereign citizenry.
throwaway_9168 8y ago
As someone who neither resides in the US (or its supposedly adversary countries), nor works at BigTech, I don't think I have any bias here except I hope humanity doesn't end up obliterating itself with nukes. But your comment is, at best, a fraction of the full picture. 1 No country has ever been as ready to "spread democracy via force" as the US 2 No country has borrowed as much money to run its spendthrift military budget to carry out #1. You combine #1 and #2, and the money lenders are wondering, "Wait, WTF are you doing with all my money?" 3 No country has a tech sector with tentacles that spread as far. That's all fine (for the other countries) if you happen to be, say, neutral and generally non-aggressive Switzerland, but not so if you are a bonafide empire and keep trying to continue being an empire. 4 No country has so many immigrants working in their tech sector. Some of these immigrants are probably wondering "Wait, so I am developing weapons so people I don't know are going to bomb and kill people I actually know?" 5 Last, and certainly not least, "The first casualty of war is truth". A nerd is a nerd because he/she probably knows this very deep in their psyche somewhere. So this nerd ends up in a massive state of cognitive dissonance when asked to develop weapons of war. Its like telling them "Yeah, we won't actually tell you what we might use it for. And you have to just believe any spin we put on the whole issue. Not to mention, we might end up attacking your kith and kin. But its all OK, because WE are the country of DEMOCRACY and FREEDOM". >> its companies can be counted on to be supportive and/or loyal in the event of conflict. That's probably a smaller question, as seen by a neutral. A bigger question at this point is, can the USA, which managed to elect Donald Trump, by counted on to be a stable and reliable superpower or should all the other countries already start taking an "every country for itself approach", which is what I think is happening?
- gberger 8y ago
  > No country has so many immigrants working in their tech sector. Usually the kind of tech+military work that actually gets people bombed and killed is reserved for US citizens with security clearance. Unless you're implying that, like, deploying Office is equivalent to developing killer drone tech.
  - bvttf 8y ago
    So much software is dual purpose, though. "We need this moving object recognition for, uh, cars. So it knows where a moving person is, so it can avoid them." "Yes, that's a thing we're totally doing. Cars."
    - moron4hire 8y ago
      It would get a lot of people in management sent to prison to do something like that.
      - sterlind 8y ago
        You sweet summer child. It's not even illegal for management to mislead its workers about what they'll do with the products of their labor. More pragmatically, there are a very limited supply of talented, highly-controlled, cleared engineers and architects. Those people meet with the customer, work out the architecture and staging plans, chop the tasks into tiny, innocuous components (like identifying moving targets!) - components that are intrinsically dual-use and valuable assets - and farm out the tasks. My own code runs on DoD machines and I've certainly never anticipated it. It's all generic enough though, that I don't feel like I've done anything evil, even if it's used for evil... that's exactly the point.
    - sammorrowdrums 8y ago
      This. Companies and academia too. This has been a huge part of academic investment by government too. Yes we'll sponsor your PHD in this area because (often without the academics direct knowledge) we have a need in a certain area and we think this might help. That might be signal reflection calculation (like more precise GPS in a place with tall buildings). It might be a new kind of harder material (carbon nanotubes/ graphene). Or perhaps it's a better understanding of a drug / mental health / the mind that has a side-effect of having nefarious applications as well as helpful ones being considered. Even if the result is that it doesn't work, the armed forces and clandestine services are very interested in the outcomes of research that might fix a piece of their puzzle.
whatshisface 8y ago
Even further be it from me to fall in to the "everything I don't like and some things I do are a deep state conspiracy," but if I was a covert US agent that wasn't happy to see people turn against helping their government, I would seriously consider stirring up suspicions of foreign influence on public demonstrations. After all, you know, labor strikes are organized by communists.
- Nasrudith 8y ago
  Personally I suspect the roor cause is loss of moral authority in the United States military and assiciated apparatuses. Between the expense for no "good results, torture, spying on its citizens, going unpunished for no good end people lost faith and are finding supporting it less acceptable. A reputation is built upon being judged for their past actions. It can be healed from but it takes time. Previously soldiers had a worse reputation with Mai Lai and Kent State. Now if someone is heckled as a baby killer the assumption is they are an abortion doctor and not a soldier.
- myreliableness 8y ago
  Preventions of labor strikes are organized by bosses and public servants.
myreliableness 8y ago
The argument that The United States’ involvements in World War II were so impactful and influential was only possible because of the faith of it’s citizens negotiated by Eisenhower’s New Deal is not new. And an interesting angle of it involves the position that, even if you conclude the US did not actually exhibit expertise, the fact remains that it’s reputation took the credit anyhow. Any of the above would demand a sovereign citizenry.
- bryanrasmussen 8y ago
  Eisenhower’s New Deal?
eMSF 8y ago
I'm happy they're reaping what they've sown. Company culture. Reason in reasonable. I hope they drop either the contract, or the workers and their ilk.
0x8BADF00D 8y ago
It begs the question: are you personally responsible if the code you’ve written has led to the loss of life? Many would seem to think so. Either you accept you have blood on your hands, or you don’t engage in business with an outfit like the US military. Can’t have it both ways.
- jki275 8y ago
  US Military uses Linux all over the place. Lot of people have blood on their hands under your model.

yyyymmddhhmmss 8y ago

The argument that The United States’ involvements in World War II were so impactful and influential was only possible because of the faith of it’s citizens negotiated by Eisenhower’s New Deal is not new. And an interesting angle of it involves the position that, even if you conclude the US did not actually exhibit expertise, the fact remains that it’s reputation took the credit anyhow. Any of the above would demand a sovereign citizenry.

throwaway_9168 8y ago

As someone who neither resides in the US (or its supposedly adversary countries), nor works at BigTech, I don't think I have any bias here except I hope humanity doesn't end up obliterating itself with nukes. But your comment is, at best, a fraction of the full picture. 1 No country has ever been as ready to "spread democracy via force" as the US 2 No country has borrowed as much money to run its spendthrift military budget to carry out #1. You combine #1 and #2, and the money lenders are wondering, "Wait, WTF are you doing with all my money?" 3 No country has a tech sector with tentacles that spread as far. That's all fine (for the other countries) if you happen to be, say, neutral and generally non-aggressive Switzerland, but not so if you are a bonafide empire and keep trying to continue being an empire. 4 No country has so many immigrants working in their tech sector. Some of these immigrants are probably wondering "Wait, so I am developing weapons so people I don't know are going to bomb and kill people I actually know?" 5 Last, and certainly not least, "The first casualty of war is truth". A nerd is a nerd because he/she probably knows this very deep in their psyche somewhere. So this nerd ends up in a massive state of cognitive dissonance when asked to develop weapons of war. Its like telling them "Yeah, we won't actually tell you what we might use it for. And you have to just believe any spin we put on the whole issue. Not to mention, we might end up attacking your kith and kin. But its all OK, because WE are the country of DEMOCRACY and FREEDOM". >> its companies can be counted on to be supportive and/or loyal in the event of conflict. That's probably a smaller question, as seen by a neutral. A bigger question at this point is, can the USA, which managed to elect Donald Trump, by counted on to be a stable and reliable superpower or should all the other countries already start taking an "every country for itself approach", which is what I think is happening?

gberger 8y ago
> No country has so many immigrants working in their tech sector. Usually the kind of tech+military work that actually gets people bombed and killed is reserved for US citizens with security clearance. Unless you're implying that, like, deploying Office is equivalent to developing killer drone tech.
- bvttf 8y ago
  So much software is dual purpose, though. "We need this moving object recognition for, uh, cars. So it knows where a moving person is, so it can avoid them." "Yes, that's a thing we're totally doing. Cars."
  - moron4hire 8y ago
    It would get a lot of people in management sent to prison to do something like that.
    - sterlind 8y ago
      You sweet summer child. It's not even illegal for management to mislead its workers about what they'll do with the products of their labor. More pragmatically, there are a very limited supply of talented, highly-controlled, cleared engineers and architects. Those people meet with the customer, work out the architecture and staging plans, chop the tasks into tiny, innocuous components (like identifying moving targets!) - components that are intrinsically dual-use and valuable assets - and farm out the tasks. My own code runs on DoD machines and I've certainly never anticipated it. It's all generic enough though, that I don't feel like I've done anything evil, even if it's used for evil... that's exactly the point.
  - sammorrowdrums 8y ago
    This. Companies and academia too. This has been a huge part of academic investment by government too. Yes we'll sponsor your PHD in this area because (often without the academics direct knowledge) we have a need in a certain area and we think this might help. That might be signal reflection calculation (like more precise GPS in a place with tall buildings). It might be a new kind of harder material (carbon nanotubes/ graphene). Or perhaps it's a better understanding of a drug / mental health / the mind that has a side-effect of having nefarious applications as well as helpful ones being considered. Even if the result is that it doesn't work, the armed forces and clandestine services are very interested in the outcomes of research that might fix a piece of their puzzle.

whatshisface 8y ago

Even further be it from me to fall in to the "everything I don't like and some things I do are a deep state conspiracy," but if I was a covert US agent that wasn't happy to see people turn against helping their government, I would seriously consider stirring up suspicions of foreign influence on public demonstrations. After all, you know, labor strikes are organized by communists.

Nasrudith 8y ago
Personally I suspect the roor cause is loss of moral authority in the United States military and assiciated apparatuses. Between the expense for no "good results, torture, spying on its citizens, going unpunished for no good end people lost faith and are finding supporting it less acceptable. A reputation is built upon being judged for their past actions. It can be healed from but it takes time. Previously soldiers had a worse reputation with Mai Lai and Kent State. Now if someone is heckled as a baby killer the assumption is they are an abortion doctor and not a soldier.
myreliableness 8y ago
Preventions of labor strikes are organized by bosses and public servants.

myreliableness 8y ago

bryanrasmussen 8y ago
Eisenhower’s New Deal?

eMSF 8y ago

I'm happy they're reaping what they've sown. Company culture. Reason in reasonable. I hope they drop either the contract, or the workers and their ilk.

0x8BADF00D 8y ago

It begs the question: are you personally responsible if the code you’ve written has led to the loss of life? Many would seem to think so. Either you accept you have blood on your hands, or you don’t engage in business with an outfit like the US military. Can’t have it both ways.

jki275 8y ago
US Military uses Linux all over the place. Lot of people have blood on their hands under your model.