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One my gripes with "michelin star" system is that it is heavily tilted towards European and Japanese food. There is absolutely no Indian, South American, Medite

by dm8 8y ago

One my gripes with "michelin star" system is that it is heavily tilted towards European and Japanese food. There is absolutely no Indian, South American, Mediterranean, Thai, or Chinese restaurants (albeit few though) in it's catalog. They are pretty much missing the diverse and exceptional gastronomical experience in doing so. EDIT: Small change, looks like there are few Chinese restaurants!

zht 8y ago
there's a bunch of chinese restaurants. not sure about the others
porphyrogene 8y ago
They are pretty transparent about that fact. There are obvious factors that contribute to a restaurant being visited by Michelin judges, not the least of which is its location relative to other restaurants that are visited. There is also the matter of judges needing to be familiar with a cuisine in order to judge it properly. Without extensive knowledge of ingredients, preparation methods and presentation patterns it is difficult to issue a Michelin rating. If they do not know the culinary landscape how do you imagine they will issue a rating? Doing so would destroy their credibility as a knowledgeable school of critics. There used to be zero stars in Japan but that has changed over time as the Michelin system has embraced the cuisine and visa versa. It is easy to point out that many cuisines are not represented in the Michelin guide but what are the alternatives? That a limited number of people learn everything there is to know in an instant? That the ratings become so arbitrary that they are meaningless? There is nothing in the Michelin guide that claims that good food cannot be found elsewhere. I fail to see the controversy in a publication that is seemingly doing what it can to stick to what it knows while progressively broadening its horizons.
- dm8 8y ago
  >> If they do not know the culinary landscape how do you imagine they will issue a rating? Doing so would destroy their credibility as a knowledgeable school of critics. By hiring more inspectors? I'm not saying there is cultural bias or something like that. I'm just pointing out the fact that they have certain cuisines that are not represented. If you consistently claim to be - "the world’s best known independent restaurant and hotel guide" with proudly boasting 100 odd year history, then you better show gastronomic variety. Else it just seems weird. [1] From their twitter handle description - twitter.com/MichelinGuideUK
  - tcbawo 8y ago
    It is a business, so I imagine the fairness goal ultimately serves that end. Expanding the rating system probably has to be driven by demand and there has to be a cost/benefit trade-off. Can anyone comment on the comparability of Michelin star ratings between cultural regions?
ryanlol 8y ago
Any chance you could name some Indian restaurants that deserve 3 stars but haven't got them?
- dm8 8y ago
  I'm not sure if I can answer that as I don't know their rating system. However, I'm confident of the fact that if they have inspectors who have expertise in Indian food then there will be dozens of restaurants from different Indian cities alone. Every part of India has unique food offerings and diversity. Street food alone has so much to offer in India. Now ever popular dishes (across the globe) like Butter Chicken were invented in few restaurants in New Delhi around 70-80 years ago. [1] Butter Chicken - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butter_chicken https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butter_chicken
- mirimir 8y ago
  My favorites in New Jersey are Mehndi (Morristown) and Moghul (Edison). They're operated by a family from Goa. Also many of the staff.
  - ryanlol 8y ago
    Both of these look pretty nice, but after some tripadvisor-sleuthing I'm not really convinced that they're quite "michelin-quality". One strong clue would be the apparent lack of a sommelier.
    - komali2 8y ago
      Which doesn't necessarily mean the food isn't "Michelin-quality," it just means that the whole experience isn't "Michelin-quality." A Michelin star doesn't just come from the literal taste of the food (or the presentation), it comes from every aspect of the restaurant and staff - down to the very cleanliness of the curtains.
      - mirimir 8y ago
        Well, Moghul is maybe a little boisterous for Michelin style. Because the bar and restaurant are contiguous. But I don't recall anything negative about Mehndi. And then there's Nirvana in Manhattan, at penthouse level on on Central Park South. Beautiful cityscape at night. But it's really Bangladeshi, and they don't do Vindaloo.
dragonwriter 8y ago
> There is absolutely no Indian The Michelin Guide itself disagrees: “The Michelin Guide isn't in any of the Indian cities but that doesn't mean the red book is void of the subcontinent’s cuisine. In fact, Indian restaurants are listed in most of the territories with the Guide, some of which are in truly surprising cities. Tokyo for instance, is home to three Bib Gourmand rated Indian eateries, while the first Indian restaurant awarded with a Michelin star in Asia happens to be in Macau.” https://guide.michelin.com/hk/en/hong-kong-macau/travel/8-michelin-starred-indian-restaurants-around-the-world/news https://guide.michelin.com/hk/en/hong-kong-macau/travel/8-mi... Also: https://guide.michelin.com/us/san-francisco/indian-pakistani/indian/restaurants https://guide.michelin.com/us/san-francisco/indian-pakistani... Two 1-star, One “The Plate”, and Five “Bib Gourmand” in SF Bay. > South American Alex Atala’s D.O.M.in São Paolo is a two-star “contemporary Brazilian” restaurant, the first counterexample I could find. > Mediterranean https://guide.michelin.com/us/san-francisco/mourad/restaurant https://guide.michelin.com/us/san-francisco/mourad/restauran... > Thai https://guide.michelin.com/us/san-francisco/kin-khao/restaurant https://guide.michelin.com/us/san-francisco/kin-khao/restaur... EDIT: On review, you might have been referring to geography rather than cuisine, so we’ll do that again from that perspective to cover all bases. > Indian As noted above, geographically, that's correct > South American https://guide.michelin.com/br/rio-de-janeiro https://guide.michelin.com/br/rio-de-janeiro https://guide.michelin.com/br/sao-paulo https://guide.michelin.com/br/sao-paulo > Mediterranean Also a valid point, geographically. > Thai https://guide.michelin.com/th/bangkok https://guide.michelin.com/th/bangkok > Chinese https://guide.michelin.com/hk/hong-kong-macau https://guide.michelin.com/hk/hong-kong-macau https://guide.michelin.com/tw/taipei https://guide.michelin.com/tw/taipei
- ryanlol 8y ago
  >> Mediterranean >Also a valid point, geographically. Surely there must be loads of michelin-starred restaurants within the various Mediterranean culinary regions.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    That appears to be correct for at least Greece and Italy, and France and Spain though, despite geography, they are usually not intended when people talk about Mediterranean cuisine (also, people often single out the European Mediterranean cuisines individually and use “Mediterranean” more for the cuisines of the African and Southwest Asian coasts); navigation on the Michelin Guide website has some bizarre path dependencies where what seems to be available depends on where you jumped in from, which I think contributed to me overlooking that before. But there is no Michelin coverage for Africa or for Asia outside of East Asia. Unless I haven't found the right secret path into the guide.
beat 8y ago
I don't think they're missing out - they probably enjoy a good Indian restaurant as much as we do. But for what they measure, that's tilted toward a certain kind of presentation that is predominantly done by French and Japanese restaurants. It's not just about the food, and how enjoyable the food is. It's about the wine selection, the interior decoration, and a whole host of other things. Rather than resenting the Michelin system for not representing the kind of restaurants we love, maybe just recognize that it's not supposed to do that, and find other ways to find and measure restaurants that don't fit the Michelin data model?
- pjeide 8y ago
  FWIW, there is a food cart in Singapore that has a Michelin star -- Hong Kong Soya Sauce Chicken Rice and Noodle. Not so much as far as interior design or wine selection goes.
- ValentineC 8y ago
  > But for what they measure, that's tilted toward a certain kind of presentation that is predominantly done by French and Japanese restaurants. It's not just about the food, and how enjoyable the food is. It's about the wine selection, the interior decoration, and a whole host of other things. Michelin stars are awarded based on food "quality" alone [1]: > the quality of ingredients used, the skill in food preparation, the combination of flavours, the value for money, the consistency of culinary standards. [1] https://guide.michelin.com/hk/en/hong-kong-macau/features/5-myths-about-the-michelin-guide-debunked/news https://guide.michelin.com/hk/en/hong-kong-macau/features/5-...
  - beat 8y ago
    So why is their such a tilt toward expensive French, Japanese, and modernist restaurants? Sure, they even give stars to a couple of food carts now, but how recent is that development? This is not to say they aren't improving. But it does say that they didn't always live up to their own stated standards.
wl 8y ago
Rasa in Burlingame is an Indian restaurant with one star.
Mikeb85 8y ago
That's not actually true. Also, Michelin gives awards for fine dining, meaning a specific style of service. Any type of restaurant that meets the service requirements can be awarded Michelin stars, there's a Nigerian restaurant in London that's recently been awarded a star.
fraudsyndrome 8y ago
This might interest you but it's in the context of Australia https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-27/asian-food-fine-dining-good-food-guide-gourmet-traveller/10427934 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-27/asian-food-fine-dinin...

by dm8 8y ago

zht 8y ago

there's a bunch of chinese restaurants. not sure about the others

porphyrogene 8y ago

They are pretty transparent about that fact. There are obvious factors that contribute to a restaurant being visited by Michelin judges, not the least of which is its location relative to other restaurants that are visited. There is also the matter of judges needing to be familiar with a cuisine in order to judge it properly. Without extensive knowledge of ingredients, preparation methods and presentation patterns it is difficult to issue a Michelin rating. If they do not know the culinary landscape how do you imagine they will issue a rating? Doing so would destroy their credibility as a knowledgeable school of critics. There used to be zero stars in Japan but that has changed over time as the Michelin system has embraced the cuisine and visa versa. It is easy to point out that many cuisines are not represented in the Michelin guide but what are the alternatives? That a limited number of people learn everything there is to know in an instant? That the ratings become so arbitrary that they are meaningless? There is nothing in the Michelin guide that claims that good food cannot be found elsewhere. I fail to see the controversy in a publication that is seemingly doing what it can to stick to what it knows while progressively broadening its horizons.

dm8 8y ago
>> If they do not know the culinary landscape how do you imagine they will issue a rating? Doing so would destroy their credibility as a knowledgeable school of critics. By hiring more inspectors? I'm not saying there is cultural bias or something like that. I'm just pointing out the fact that they have certain cuisines that are not represented. If you consistently claim to be - "the world’s best known independent restaurant and hotel guide" with proudly boasting 100 odd year history, then you better show gastronomic variety. Else it just seems weird. [1] From their twitter handle description - twitter.com/MichelinGuideUK
- tcbawo 8y ago
  It is a business, so I imagine the fairness goal ultimately serves that end. Expanding the rating system probably has to be driven by demand and there has to be a cost/benefit trade-off. Can anyone comment on the comparability of Michelin star ratings between cultural regions?

ryanlol 8y ago

Any chance you could name some Indian restaurants that deserve 3 stars but haven't got them?

dm8 8y ago
I'm not sure if I can answer that as I don't know their rating system. However, I'm confident of the fact that if they have inspectors who have expertise in Indian food then there will be dozens of restaurants from different Indian cities alone. Every part of India has unique food offerings and diversity. Street food alone has so much to offer in India. Now ever popular dishes (across the globe) like Butter Chicken were invented in few restaurants in New Delhi around 70-80 years ago. [1] Butter Chicken - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butter_chicken https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butter_chicken
mirimir 8y ago
My favorites in New Jersey are Mehndi (Morristown) and Moghul (Edison). They're operated by a family from Goa. Also many of the staff.
- ryanlol 8y ago
  Both of these look pretty nice, but after some tripadvisor-sleuthing I'm not really convinced that they're quite "michelin-quality". One strong clue would be the apparent lack of a sommelier.
  - komali2 8y ago
    Which doesn't necessarily mean the food isn't "Michelin-quality," it just means that the whole experience isn't "Michelin-quality." A Michelin star doesn't just come from the literal taste of the food (or the presentation), it comes from every aspect of the restaurant and staff - down to the very cleanliness of the curtains.
    - mirimir 8y ago
      Well, Moghul is maybe a little boisterous for Michelin style. Because the bar and restaurant are contiguous. But I don't recall anything negative about Mehndi. And then there's Nirvana in Manhattan, at penthouse level on on Central Park South. Beautiful cityscape at night. But it's really Bangladeshi, and they don't do Vindaloo.

dragonwriter 8y ago

> There is absolutely no Indian The Michelin Guide itself disagrees: “The Michelin Guide isn't in any of the Indian cities but that doesn't mean the red book is void of the subcontinent’s cuisine. In fact, Indian restaurants are listed in most of the territories with the Guide, some of which are in truly surprising cities. Tokyo for instance, is home to three Bib Gourmand rated Indian eateries, while the first Indian restaurant awarded with a Michelin star in Asia happens to be in Macau.” https://guide.michelin.com/hk/en/hong-kong-macau/travel/8-michelin-starred-indian-restaurants-around-the-world/news https://guide.michelin.com/hk/en/hong-kong-macau/travel/8-mi... Also: https://guide.michelin.com/us/san-francisco/indian-pakistani/indian/restaurants https://guide.michelin.com/us/san-francisco/indian-pakistani... Two 1-star, One “The Plate”, and Five “Bib Gourmand” in SF Bay. > South American Alex Atala’s D.O.M.in São Paolo is a two-star “contemporary Brazilian” restaurant, the first counterexample I could find. > Mediterranean https://guide.michelin.com/us/san-francisco/mourad/restaurant https://guide.michelin.com/us/san-francisco/mourad/restauran... > Thai https://guide.michelin.com/us/san-francisco/kin-khao/restaurant https://guide.michelin.com/us/san-francisco/kin-khao/restaur... EDIT: On review, you might have been referring to geography rather than cuisine, so we’ll do that again from that perspective to cover all bases. > Indian As noted above, geographically, that's correct > South American https://guide.michelin.com/br/rio-de-janeiro https://guide.michelin.com/br/rio-de-janeiro https://guide.michelin.com/br/sao-paulo https://guide.michelin.com/br/sao-paulo > Mediterranean Also a valid point, geographically. > Thai https://guide.michelin.com/th/bangkok https://guide.michelin.com/th/bangkok > Chinese https://guide.michelin.com/hk/hong-kong-macau https://guide.michelin.com/hk/hong-kong-macau https://guide.michelin.com/tw/taipei https://guide.michelin.com/tw/taipei

ryanlol 8y ago
>> Mediterranean >Also a valid point, geographically. Surely there must be loads of michelin-starred restaurants within the various Mediterranean culinary regions.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  That appears to be correct for at least Greece and Italy, and France and Spain though, despite geography, they are usually not intended when people talk about Mediterranean cuisine (also, people often single out the European Mediterranean cuisines individually and use “Mediterranean” more for the cuisines of the African and Southwest Asian coasts); navigation on the Michelin Guide website has some bizarre path dependencies where what seems to be available depends on where you jumped in from, which I think contributed to me overlooking that before. But there is no Michelin coverage for Africa or for Asia outside of East Asia. Unless I haven't found the right secret path into the guide.

beat 8y ago

I don't think they're missing out - they probably enjoy a good Indian restaurant as much as we do. But for what they measure, that's tilted toward a certain kind of presentation that is predominantly done by French and Japanese restaurants. It's not just about the food, and how enjoyable the food is. It's about the wine selection, the interior decoration, and a whole host of other things. Rather than resenting the Michelin system for not representing the kind of restaurants we love, maybe just recognize that it's not supposed to do that, and find other ways to find and measure restaurants that don't fit the Michelin data model?

pjeide 8y ago
FWIW, there is a food cart in Singapore that has a Michelin star -- Hong Kong Soya Sauce Chicken Rice and Noodle. Not so much as far as interior design or wine selection goes.
ValentineC 8y ago
> But for what they measure, that's tilted toward a certain kind of presentation that is predominantly done by French and Japanese restaurants. It's not just about the food, and how enjoyable the food is. It's about the wine selection, the interior decoration, and a whole host of other things. Michelin stars are awarded based on food "quality" alone [1]: > the quality of ingredients used, the skill in food preparation, the combination of flavours, the value for money, the consistency of culinary standards. [1] https://guide.michelin.com/hk/en/hong-kong-macau/features/5-myths-about-the-michelin-guide-debunked/news https://guide.michelin.com/hk/en/hong-kong-macau/features/5-...
- beat 8y ago
  So why is their such a tilt toward expensive French, Japanese, and modernist restaurants? Sure, they even give stars to a couple of food carts now, but how recent is that development? This is not to say they aren't improving. But it does say that they didn't always live up to their own stated standards.

wl 8y ago

Rasa in Burlingame is an Indian restaurant with one star.

Mikeb85 8y ago

That's not actually true. Also, Michelin gives awards for fine dining, meaning a specific style of service. Any type of restaurant that meets the service requirements can be awarded Michelin stars, there's a Nigerian restaurant in London that's recently been awarded a star.

fraudsyndrome 8y ago

This might interest you but it's in the context of Australia https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-27/asian-food-fine-dining-good-food-guide-gourmet-traveller/10427934 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-27/asian-food-fine-dinin...