9 ms·

Facebook Messaging: scorned by nerds, built for teens like candy-covered crack

mayanklahiri 16y ago
This raises the larger question about how much influence hackers and developers really have in terms of product adoption. There seem to be two schools of thought: (1) Hackers/nerds are early adopters. Thus, they will influence "normal" people to use products that they judge to be superior. (2) Hackers/nerds are a tiny proportion of the population with no real influence. They might push esoteric but superior technologies, but large-scale adoption will ultimately be driven by how quickly cat pictures can be shared with the largest group of people. The author of the article clearly believes in (2), but Apple seems to be making money off (1). So which is it? Or is this some sort of false dichotomy to begin with?
- nchlswu 16y ago
  I don't think Apple is making a gross majority off of (1), it just happens that Apple's products can appeal to an even larger majority since they do appeal to "hackers/nerds" I'm constantly amazed when the "hacker" types lack the ability to see the bigger picture wrt (2) you described. At least on internet comments, so many lead a very self centered viewpoint. By sheer numbers, it's clear that "hacker" types don't provide the influence that directly leads to the critical large-scale adoption that is desired by so many. I don't think it's necessary to choose between (1) and (2) at all. "Hacker"-types and early adopters are necessary for any product to gain any traction. They hold early influence (which obviously varies depending on the product) which diminishes as the product gains a higher adoption rate.
  - mayanklahiri 16y ago
    > "Hacker"-types and early adopters are necessary for any product to gain any traction. They hold early influence (which obviously varies depending on the product) which diminishes as the product gains a higher adoption rate. I guess then my question is whether "hackers" as an early-adopter group are worthwhile for targeting. Anyone have any anecdotes where a mainstream product started as a hacker niche?
    - timwiseman 16y ago
      Personal computers?
    - jat850 16y ago
      Android, maybe. I suspect most initial Android phones went to hacker types, before it gained mainstream attention.
- ugh 16y ago
  Facebook is used by several hundred million people. It looks as though their old messaging systems will just be replaced and extended by the new one. I don’t think they need to worry all that much about early adopters. If the average Facebook user likes the new messaging system it will be used. What nerds do doesn’t matter.
- kyro 16y ago
  It is almost always option 2. Unless it is a company offering cool new tech and/or directly targeted at hackers, I don't think I can think of even one large company that owes its success largely due to hacker/nerds as early adopters. Hackers tend to be extremely practical individuals, and in their pursuit to practical perfection, they often forget to realize that there are people out there who value practicality lower than many other factors (eg. aesthetics, social validation). I bet most hackers won't care much for Facebook's new release ("they just reinvented email folders -- really?"), but I'm sure the majority of Facebook's power-users will love it. Similarly, many hackers don't get the appeal of Apple's products as they believe they're sacrificing function for form, but Apple seems to be doing alright. Lots of opportunities arise when you realize that the majority of consumers out there are actually looking to gain a lot more than just practicality, even if that may come at a practical cost. Women don't wear high heels and emo teens don't wear overly tight jeans because they feel comfortable.
- joe_the_user 16y ago
  Oddly enough, a lot of Apple Fan boys are hackers but make the (2)-style arguments "you might not like this device but it's great for my mom who knows nothing about computers"
  - ary 16y ago
    By and large most of those devices don't require you to hand over tons of personal (and potentially sensitive) information just to use them. Edit: My point being that advocating on behalf of mom and dad when it comes to technology shouldn't be frowned upon if it really does make their lives easier and better.
    - philwelch 16y ago
      Neither does Facebook, actually. Just a name and email address.
      - ary 16y ago
        Oh? What about the graph of everyone that you want to connect with and much of the communication between you and your "friends" (which is only boosted by these new features)?
        philwelch 16y ago
        Obviously if you want to follow your friends' activity and exchange messages with them over Facebook, you have to follow your friends' activity and exchange messages with them over Facebook. I'm not sure what the objection is here.
        pyre 16y ago
        The point is that Facebook is based on trying to convince users to hand over as much private information as possible without making it seem like a bad thing (or even alerting them to the fact that everything they are doing is being recorded for the financial gain Facebook). A lot of the 'lowest common denominator' people probably just see Facebook as a tool (or 'the internet'). They don't normally think about whether or not the hammer they are using is recording statistics on them from behind a two-way mirror, so why would they think the same thing of Facebook. If a geek suggests that his parents should get an Apple computer because "It's 'just works' for my mom" it's not the same thing as Facebook because an Apple computer isn't monetized on the idea that Apple will coerce as much personal information out of your mom as is possible while trying to leave her as clueless as possible to the implications of doing so.
- mike-cardwell 16y ago
  He used the usual lazy arguments and spoke of Facebook users as if they're a type. "Facebook Messaging was built for Facebook fans. It wasn’t made for folk who are bothered about ‘privacy issues’ or the idea of oversharing" How many hundred million users does Facebook have? It has them from all walks of life, with all sorts of opinions. Nerds and non-nerds. From what I've seen, most people don't like Facebook. They use it because it's convenient and because other people do. They stay logged in because of the addictive nature of the status updates, so are more likely to respond quickly to messages, unlike with email. A lot of people might use this new messaging system. It will be a bad thing if they do. Facebook has already proven numerous times that they can't be considered trusted custodians of peoples private data. I also wouldn't like it if all my phone calls were routed through Facebook.
- timwiseman 16y ago
  You are neglecting the fact that many hackers/nerds are highly concerned with how quickly they can share cat pictures.
- ohyes 16y ago
  "Or is this some sort of false dichotomy to begin with?" Yes. When you are starting out, you need that first critical mass of people to get your service going. Those are the nerds looking for the next 'cool' thing. Once you have a service going, you can ditch the nerds, they are a small segment of the population. Instead pander to the lowest common denominator. I don't see how Apple is making money off (1). I'm a nerd and I haven't owned an Apple product recently (disclosure: I had a B&W G3 in the late 90s; it was sick, I mean, firewire and usb, man). The iPod was not the first mp3 player. (In fact, it had worse specs and a higher price than its contemporaries back in the day...) And with their computers, I mean, realistically, they are making money off of overpriced hardware running warmed-over BSD. Sure, its got a fancy skin, but the in terms of the substantive stuff, it is BSD. Where they really make money is incredibly amazingly great marketing and an increasingly loyal user population. You could say that the loyal group of users is due to 'superior' something or other (tech ux, etc.). This might be true, but i can't imagine them actually winning market capital with those. Where they really win are with the commercials that I can't friggin' get out of my head. So sure, false dichotomy, and no one ever made money off of (1), (1) is kind of the price you pay to jumpstart your market.
  - jacobolus 16y ago
    > but the in terms of the substantive stuff, it is BSD. Where they really make money is incredibly amazingly great marketing This is just insulting flamebait.
    - ohyes 16y ago
      How so? I'm baffled by how this is flame baiting. They have amazing marketing! They have great stores! It looks great! On a technical level, I don't see how the OS and hardware are better than, for example, BSD or Linux on Intel hardware (same hardware)! I honestly want to know what exactly is better from a geek perspective. If you can tell me, I'll go out and buy one. I've looked at them and I haven't seen anything.
      - jacobolus 16y ago
- Brokenbottleboy 16y ago
  I'm the author of the piece and I believe in both. 1 works initially but then 2 takes over in time. Apple isn't about "hackers", it's about people who want ease of use and style. Linux boxes and the like are hacker territory with hardware they can mess with.
biznickman 16y ago
Best explanation that I've read yet. Concise and to the point.
- jimmyjazz14 16y ago
  and manages to include the phrase "raging woody".
  - Brokenbottleboy 16y ago
    I'm so pleased someone else thought that was funny.
swombat 16y ago
Spot on. Consider that IM client which got a million users in a couple of weeks a short while ago... that's the market that FB Messaging has to be aiming at, surely. And with 500 million users to seed it with, they'll get to a million active users in about 10 minutes.
- joe_the_user 16y ago
  But given their huge size, I actually don't think they necessarily benefit from generating a bunch of users of a new service. The question is how this changes the Facebook and whether it will benefit Facebook.
  - frofro 16y ago
    Existing users will be locked in even more to Facebook. New users will sign up as many of their friends start to rely on the new service.
    - panacea 16y ago
      Exactly. Which is why when the linked writer finishes his snarky observation with: "Facebook Messaging is bad? No. It just isn’t built for you." I pause for a moment. I think it's equally lucid to think "but I don't want to step onto your lawn!" as it is to denigrate the "get off my lawn" mentality. The privacy implications wavered by others, if not frivolously, then for other reasons, are still of concern to me. Regardless of whether or not I'm happy to waiver them myself.
    - flipbrad 16y ago
      and a company whose business is bypassing privacy to learn about consumers, will have a record of all telecom between those consumers
  - tlack 16y ago
    it will ultimately cause users to spend more time on site when they can send sms or email very easily through FB. for instance, i neglect to use FB chat a lot because i'm not sure if the user is really logged in - if it instantly became an email or SMS so i know it would reach the recipient, i would use it more
phlux 16y ago
I was writing about this last week here on HN; but decided to kill the comment as I felt maybe I was being too pessimistic/critical: I stated that FB has the Toys R Us business model: People are always producing kids; the internet always has new generations coming online. They are building for the COMING generations -- not the current. Another here on HN summed it up best: FB's new messaging platform is for those who think FB IS the internet. Additionally, this is further reason why I would not want/use a FB payment system. I dont want to have to be logged into FB / have an account on FB in order to pay something. We have all seen how maverick Zuck is with others' privacy... Disclaimer: I have never, nor shall I ever, had a FB account. I refuse to participate. While I see the value it provides others - I have been perfectly happy to not have had an account - and even gone as far as asking friends and girlfriends not to post pics or any other info about me to the site.
- earnubs 16y ago
  Just curious, if you've never had a Facebook account how can you have an informed opinion on their product? Personally, I can't stand Twitter, but I still have an account so I can poke about, see what's new (mostly because I have a professional interest in knowing what's going on in the world of UI development).
  - jat850 16y ago
    Using a product is not an absolute requirement for forming an informed opinion on it. There is enough literature and information out there that one can casually gather an insight into how Facebook works, what their policies are, and empirical observations about how it is used/experienced by others around oneself.
    - jackvalentine 16y ago
      It is important to note however, that all that data gives you a very limited view of it. I like to think I know a fair bit about cars/motor racing, but I'm positive that the few times I've spoken to actual professionals I come off as a bit of a fanboy who only knows one side of it. I can know all the physiological effects of drug abuse, but I can't know what it is like to be a drug addict without being one... etc.
hrabago 16y ago
I was just talking to my wife yesterday about this concept of "not for nerds, but rather for teens" when I was describing an iPhone app I'm working on. The app as it is now works exactly the way I want it to work, then I realized that I may not be the demo I should be targeting. At this point, my options are to redesign and reprogram the app to appeal more to teens, or release what I have now and go for people looking for utility, then after that work on a version for people looking for fun.
codexon 16y ago
I'm amazed this blog post devoid of content or insight is #1. His 4 paragraph message boils down to: "It wasn't made for techies." The same message that has been said about the Ipad, Macbook Air, Kindle and countless others.
- Brokenbottleboy 16y ago
  I know. I'm just awful aren't I?
rodericksilva 16y ago
Great point on this article. FB is starting to remind me of AOL. AOL users didn't care that you could run IE outside of AOL WWW or that you could use Thunderbird instead of AOL mail. Just make it simple and keep it simple. Good job.
- apl 16y ago
  Does that mean Facebook will vanish completely over the next 10 years and turn into a punchline? Simplicity comes in different forms; I suspect that FB is actually aiming for the wrong kind in this case.

This raises the larger question about how much influence hackers and developers really have in terms of product adoption. There seem to be two schools of thought: (1) Hackers/nerds are early adopters. Thus, they will influence "normal" people to use products that they judge to be superior. (2) Hackers/nerds are a tiny proportion of the population with no real influence. They might push esoteric but superior technologies, but large-scale adoption will ultimately be driven by how quickly cat pictures can be shared with the largest group of people. The author of the article clearly believes in (2), but Apple seems to be making money off (1). So which is it? Or is this some sort of false dichotomy to begin with?

nchlswu 16y ago
I don't think Apple is making a gross majority off of (1), it just happens that Apple's products can appeal to an even larger majority since they do appeal to "hackers/nerds" I'm constantly amazed when the "hacker" types lack the ability to see the bigger picture wrt (2) you described. At least on internet comments, so many lead a very self centered viewpoint. By sheer numbers, it's clear that "hacker" types don't provide the influence that directly leads to the critical large-scale adoption that is desired by so many. I don't think it's necessary to choose between (1) and (2) at all. "Hacker"-types and early adopters are necessary for any product to gain any traction. They hold early influence (which obviously varies depending on the product) which diminishes as the product gains a higher adoption rate.
- mayanklahiri 16y ago
  > "Hacker"-types and early adopters are necessary for any product to gain any traction. They hold early influence (which obviously varies depending on the product) which diminishes as the product gains a higher adoption rate. I guess then my question is whether "hackers" as an early-adopter group are worthwhile for targeting. Anyone have any anecdotes where a mainstream product started as a hacker niche?
  - timwiseman 16y ago
    Personal computers?
  - jat850 16y ago
    Android, maybe. I suspect most initial Android phones went to hacker types, before it gained mainstream attention.
ugh 16y ago
Facebook is used by several hundred million people. It looks as though their old messaging systems will just be replaced and extended by the new one. I don’t think they need to worry all that much about early adopters. If the average Facebook user likes the new messaging system it will be used. What nerds do doesn’t matter.
kyro 16y ago
It is almost always option 2. Unless it is a company offering cool new tech and/or directly targeted at hackers, I don't think I can think of even one large company that owes its success largely due to hacker/nerds as early adopters. Hackers tend to be extremely practical individuals, and in their pursuit to practical perfection, they often forget to realize that there are people out there who value practicality lower than many other factors (eg. aesthetics, social validation). I bet most hackers won't care much for Facebook's new release ("they just reinvented email folders -- really?"), but I'm sure the majority of Facebook's power-users will love it. Similarly, many hackers don't get the appeal of Apple's products as they believe they're sacrificing function for form, but Apple seems to be doing alright. Lots of opportunities arise when you realize that the majority of consumers out there are actually looking to gain a lot more than just practicality, even if that may come at a practical cost. Women don't wear high heels and emo teens don't wear overly tight jeans because they feel comfortable.
joe_the_user 16y ago
Oddly enough, a lot of Apple Fan boys are hackers but make the (2)-style arguments "you might not like this device but it's great for my mom who knows nothing about computers"
- ary 16y ago
  By and large most of those devices don't require you to hand over tons of personal (and potentially sensitive) information just to use them. Edit: My point being that advocating on behalf of mom and dad when it comes to technology shouldn't be frowned upon if it really does make their lives easier and better.
  - philwelch 16y ago
    Neither does Facebook, actually. Just a name and email address.
    - ary 16y ago
      Oh? What about the graph of everyone that you want to connect with and much of the communication between you and your "friends" (which is only boosted by these new features)?
      - philwelch 16y ago
        Obviously if you want to follow your friends' activity and exchange messages with them over Facebook, you have to follow your friends' activity and exchange messages with them over Facebook. I'm not sure what the objection is here.
        pyre 16y ago
        The point is that Facebook is based on trying to convince users to hand over as much private information as possible without making it seem like a bad thing (or even alerting them to the fact that everything they are doing is being recorded for the financial gain Facebook). A lot of the 'lowest common denominator' people probably just see Facebook as a tool (or 'the internet'). They don't normally think about whether or not the hammer they are using is recording statistics on them from behind a two-way mirror, so why would they think the same thing of Facebook. If a geek suggests that his parents should get an Apple computer because "It's 'just works' for my mom" it's not the same thing as Facebook because an Apple computer isn't monetized on the idea that Apple will coerce as much personal information out of your mom as is possible while trying to leave her as clueless as possible to the implications of doing so.
mike-cardwell 16y ago
He used the usual lazy arguments and spoke of Facebook users as if they're a type. "Facebook Messaging was built for Facebook fans. It wasn’t made for folk who are bothered about ‘privacy issues’ or the idea of oversharing" How many hundred million users does Facebook have? It has them from all walks of life, with all sorts of opinions. Nerds and non-nerds. From what I've seen, most people don't like Facebook. They use it because it's convenient and because other people do. They stay logged in because of the addictive nature of the status updates, so are more likely to respond quickly to messages, unlike with email. A lot of people might use this new messaging system. It will be a bad thing if they do. Facebook has already proven numerous times that they can't be considered trusted custodians of peoples private data. I also wouldn't like it if all my phone calls were routed through Facebook.
timwiseman 16y ago
You are neglecting the fact that many hackers/nerds are highly concerned with how quickly they can share cat pictures.
ohyes 16y ago
"Or is this some sort of false dichotomy to begin with?" Yes. When you are starting out, you need that first critical mass of people to get your service going. Those are the nerds looking for the next 'cool' thing. Once you have a service going, you can ditch the nerds, they are a small segment of the population. Instead pander to the lowest common denominator. I don't see how Apple is making money off (1). I'm a nerd and I haven't owned an Apple product recently (disclosure: I had a B&W G3 in the late 90s; it was sick, I mean, firewire and usb, man). The iPod was not the first mp3 player. (In fact, it had worse specs and a higher price than its contemporaries back in the day...) And with their computers, I mean, realistically, they are making money off of overpriced hardware running warmed-over BSD. Sure, its got a fancy skin, but the in terms of the substantive stuff, it is BSD. Where they really make money is incredibly amazingly great marketing and an increasingly loyal user population. You could say that the loyal group of users is due to 'superior' something or other (tech ux, etc.). This might be true, but i can't imagine them actually winning market capital with those. Where they really win are with the commercials that I can't friggin' get out of my head. So sure, false dichotomy, and no one ever made money off of (1), (1) is kind of the price you pay to jumpstart your market.
- jacobolus 16y ago
  > but the in terms of the substantive stuff, it is BSD. Where they really make money is incredibly amazingly great marketing This is just insulting flamebait.
  - ohyes 16y ago
    How so? I'm baffled by how this is flame baiting. They have amazing marketing! They have great stores! It looks great! On a technical level, I don't see how the OS and hardware are better than, for example, BSD or Linux on Intel hardware (same hardware)! I honestly want to know what exactly is better from a geek perspective. If you can tell me, I'll go out and buy one. I've looked at them and I haven't seen anything.
    - jacobolus 16y ago
Brokenbottleboy 16y ago
I'm the author of the piece and I believe in both. 1 works initially but then 2 takes over in time. Apple isn't about "hackers", it's about people who want ease of use and style. Linux boxes and the like are hacker territory with hardware they can mess with.

biznickman 16y ago

Best explanation that I've read yet. Concise and to the point.

jimmyjazz14 16y ago
and manages to include the phrase "raging woody".
- Brokenbottleboy 16y ago
  I'm so pleased someone else thought that was funny.

swombat 16y ago

Spot on. Consider that IM client which got a million users in a couple of weeks a short while ago... that's the market that FB Messaging has to be aiming at, surely. And with 500 million users to seed it with, they'll get to a million active users in about 10 minutes.

joe_the_user 16y ago
But given their huge size, I actually don't think they necessarily benefit from generating a bunch of users of a new service. The question is how this changes the Facebook and whether it will benefit Facebook.
- frofro 16y ago
  Existing users will be locked in even more to Facebook. New users will sign up as many of their friends start to rely on the new service.
  - panacea 16y ago
    Exactly. Which is why when the linked writer finishes his snarky observation with: "Facebook Messaging is bad? No. It just isn’t built for you." I pause for a moment. I think it's equally lucid to think "but I don't want to step onto your lawn!" as it is to denigrate the "get off my lawn" mentality. The privacy implications wavered by others, if not frivolously, then for other reasons, are still of concern to me. Regardless of whether or not I'm happy to waiver them myself.
  - flipbrad 16y ago
    and a company whose business is bypassing privacy to learn about consumers, will have a record of all telecom between those consumers
- tlack 16y ago
  it will ultimately cause users to spend more time on site when they can send sms or email very easily through FB. for instance, i neglect to use FB chat a lot because i'm not sure if the user is really logged in - if it instantly became an email or SMS so i know it would reach the recipient, i would use it more

phlux 16y ago

I was writing about this last week here on HN; but decided to kill the comment as I felt maybe I was being too pessimistic/critical: I stated that FB has the Toys R Us business model: People are always producing kids; the internet always has new generations coming online. They are building for the COMING generations -- not the current. Another here on HN summed it up best: FB's new messaging platform is for those who think FB IS the internet. Additionally, this is further reason why I would not want/use a FB payment system. I dont want to have to be logged into FB / have an account on FB in order to pay something. We have all seen how maverick Zuck is with others' privacy... Disclaimer: I have never, nor shall I ever, had a FB account. I refuse to participate. While I see the value it provides others - I have been perfectly happy to not have had an account - and even gone as far as asking friends and girlfriends not to post pics or any other info about me to the site.

earnubs 16y ago
Just curious, if you've never had a Facebook account how can you have an informed opinion on their product? Personally, I can't stand Twitter, but I still have an account so I can poke about, see what's new (mostly because I have a professional interest in knowing what's going on in the world of UI development).
- jat850 16y ago
  Using a product is not an absolute requirement for forming an informed opinion on it. There is enough literature and information out there that one can casually gather an insight into how Facebook works, what their policies are, and empirical observations about how it is used/experienced by others around oneself.
  - jackvalentine 16y ago
    It is important to note however, that all that data gives you a very limited view of it. I like to think I know a fair bit about cars/motor racing, but I'm positive that the few times I've spoken to actual professionals I come off as a bit of a fanboy who only knows one side of it. I can know all the physiological effects of drug abuse, but I can't know what it is like to be a drug addict without being one... etc.

hrabago 16y ago

I was just talking to my wife yesterday about this concept of "not for nerds, but rather for teens" when I was describing an iPhone app I'm working on. The app as it is now works exactly the way I want it to work, then I realized that I may not be the demo I should be targeting. At this point, my options are to redesign and reprogram the app to appeal more to teens, or release what I have now and go for people looking for utility, then after that work on a version for people looking for fun.

codexon 16y ago

I'm amazed this blog post devoid of content or insight is #1. His 4 paragraph message boils down to: "It wasn't made for techies." The same message that has been said about the Ipad, Macbook Air, Kindle and countless others.

Brokenbottleboy 16y ago
I know. I'm just awful aren't I?

rodericksilva 16y ago

Great point on this article. FB is starting to remind me of AOL. AOL users didn't care that you could run IE outside of AOL WWW or that you could use Thunderbird instead of AOL mail. Just make it simple and keep it simple. Good job.

apl 16y ago
Does that mean Facebook will vanish completely over the next 10 years and turn into a punchline? Simplicity comes in different forms; I suspect that FB is actually aiming for the wrong kind in this case.