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Lowering the effort bar for making Mac apps doesn't mean that every developer is going to do the bare minimum, but it does mean that more developers will find i

Lowering the effort bar for making Mac apps doesn't mean that every developer is going to do the bare minimum, but it does mean that more developers will find it economical to build natively. The point you're arguing is not good apps vs. mediocre apps, it's mediocre apps vs. no app at all. Frankly, there are many cross platform services I use where I would prefer a straight Marzipan port from the iPad app over the electron psuedoapp approach that's so pervasive these days.

giobox 8y ago
While Electron is inferior in almost every regard, at least the UI might actually make sense for Mouse and Keyboard manipulation. Seeing touch sized click targets on HiDPI non-touch displays as one does with the Marzipan approach is not great.
- zozbot123 8y ago
  > Seeing touch sized click targets on HiDPI non-touch displays ... That's always going to be a thing, as long as desktop environments lack a simple, foolproof way of switching system-wide between a "mouse/pointer input preferred" and a "touch/swipe input preferred" mode. (Windows 10 actually does this fairly well; I don't know of any other systems that offer the same thing, though.) It doesn't have to be a huge issue if the touch-friendly interface is well-designed. See GTK3, which has essentially switched to "touch-friendly" widgets and layouts with the new major release. Some people gripe about it, but at the end of the day it works fairly well - and at the same time, it lays the groundwork for a wholly touch-based interface to the Linux desktop.
  - giobox 8y ago
    > That's always going to be a thing Except that Apple spent a decade telling us it won't be a thing, which is why they never put a touch screen on a Mac. Until 2018 it had never been a thing. Supposedly this is iOS's remit, and designing the entire OS for solely touch (iOS) or solely mouse and keyboard (MacOS), they argue, is the better way forward. Your arguments are perfectly valid for many other computer platforms, where mixed direct/indirect input exists. It has never existed on the Mac, supposedly by design, until now when Marzipan has provided a path for these touch UIs to ship on them. This is why it feels especially wrong on the Mac.
Analemma_ 8y ago
Honestly, I disagree. The only Marzipan apps I’ve used so far are Apple’s built-in ones, and maybe things will get better because this is the early days, but they’re gag-inducingly bad. I honestly much prefer well-made Electron apps like VSCode and I’d take that any day if we can’t have good native apps.

giobox 8y ago

While Electron is inferior in almost every regard, at least the UI might actually make sense for Mouse and Keyboard manipulation. Seeing touch sized click targets on HiDPI non-touch displays as one does with the Marzipan approach is not great.

zozbot123 8y ago
> Seeing touch sized click targets on HiDPI non-touch displays ... That's always going to be a thing, as long as desktop environments lack a simple, foolproof way of switching system-wide between a "mouse/pointer input preferred" and a "touch/swipe input preferred" mode. (Windows 10 actually does this fairly well; I don't know of any other systems that offer the same thing, though.) It doesn't have to be a huge issue if the touch-friendly interface is well-designed. See GTK3, which has essentially switched to "touch-friendly" widgets and layouts with the new major release. Some people gripe about it, but at the end of the day it works fairly well - and at the same time, it lays the groundwork for a wholly touch-based interface to the Linux desktop.
- giobox 8y ago
  > That's always going to be a thing Except that Apple spent a decade telling us it won't be a thing, which is why they never put a touch screen on a Mac. Until 2018 it had never been a thing. Supposedly this is iOS's remit, and designing the entire OS for solely touch (iOS) or solely mouse and keyboard (MacOS), they argue, is the better way forward. Your arguments are perfectly valid for many other computer platforms, where mixed direct/indirect input exists. It has never existed on the Mac, supposedly by design, until now when Marzipan has provided a path for these touch UIs to ship on them. This is why it feels especially wrong on the Mac.

Analemma_ 8y ago

Honestly, I disagree. The only Marzipan apps I’ve used so far are Apple’s built-in ones, and maybe things will get better because this is the early days, but they’re gag-inducingly bad. I honestly much prefer well-made Electron apps like VSCode and I’d take that any day if we can’t have good native apps.