5 ms·

Personally I've been reading the text and trying to grasp the implications of this. There appears to be two limitations on this power: 1. You cannot be compell

by jeeeeb 8y ago

Personally I've been reading the text and trying to grasp the implications of this. There appears to be two limitations on this power: 1. You cannot be compelled to do something in a foreign country that would be a crime in that country 2. In issuing the notice the relevant oversight authority must give weight to your 'legitimate' interests. I think 1 is a huge point as it effectively constrains the jurisdiction of the law to Australia. However, there is still significant ambiguity. For example, can I be compelled to commit a crime against a foreign country while in Australia, if I have a legitimate interest in not committing a crime against that country? Would a company's legitimate interest in not compromising customer trust (more than the existence of this legislation doesn't already), act as a significant constraint on the issuing of TANs/TCNs? There's also ambiguity as to whether I can reveal the existence of a TAN/TCN to my employer. The law makes certain exceptions, including the ability to publish the aggregate total of TAN/TCN received in a 6 month period and seek legal advice. So in order to seek legal advice or reasonably execute a TAN/TCN can I let my employer know?

fit2rule 8y ago
I'm an Australian software developer, living in Europe and working for a European company (Austria) which has an Australian partner developing software for use in both the Australian and European markets. Can the Australian government compel me to sabotage the Australian software for their uses within Australia, and if so, can the Austrian government charge me with a crime for having done it while living in Austria? The fact that I even have to ask this kind of question enrages me. I'm considering giving up my Australian citizenship over this, it is that infuriating.
- jeeeeb 8y ago
  I was worried about this as well which is why I read the law and commented above. The short answer is: 1. Non-compliance with a TAN/TCN is a civil not a criminal mater 2. As I stated above the law clearly says that it is a defence for non-compliance if a TAN/TCN would compel you to commit a crime in a foreign country. The issue is whether you can be compelled to commit an act in Australia, which would be a crime in a foreign country. 3. Consideration must be given to your legitimate interests. In short, if you get a TAN/TCN then seek legal advice.
  - verroq 8y ago
    I thought a TAN/TCN also comes with a gag order.
    - jeeeeb 8y ago
      There are exceptions to this, including for seeking legal advice. If you think the law effects you then I highly recommend reading the entire text, as passed by parliament: https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;db=LEGISLATION;id=legislation%2Fbills%2Fr6195_aspassed%2F0001;query=Id%3A%22legislation%2Fbills%2Fr6195_aspassed%2F0000%22 https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display....
  - fit2rule 8y ago
    Well, I'm working on software systems that are precisely the sort of thing that the Australian government will target with this law (transportation systems), and it is highly likely that these systems will be targeted with a TAN/TCN. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the software segment that I currently work on is going to be hit by this law, and hard, within the next year or so. If I don't get a TAN/TCN request, I'm almost 100% sure that someone within the group of companies I am working, will. And I want none of that. So I feel strongly enough about the tyranny and evil of the Australian government that it looks like I'm going to be giving up my Australian citizenship. Oh, wait: "We will not approve your application to renounce your citizenship if you do not have another foreign citizenship or it is not in Australia’s interests." [emphasis added] What an extraordinarily evil thing for the Australian government to have done to its citizens. Well then, some other options: 0. Do the typical Australian thing: "she'll be right mate!", and stick my head in the sand, hoping that ignoring the bad man will make him go away. This seems to work for a lot of Australians, so might work for me. Could be, I'll never be the subject of a TAN/TCN, but then again, why risk it. 1. I could change my profession. However, this would mean that over time, only the types of people who are willing to act as repressive agents of the Australian government would be found in the software industry. This is really a non-savoury outcome, as I have over 30 years in the software industry and am very proud of the good I have done in this field - I would hate to turn it over to such cunts who think its fine to spy for the Australian Fascist Overlords. I know they're out there - people like me are keeping them from taking over, completely. (A brief moment of brevity for the poor Australians reading this: Fuck. The Australian Government is literally Auntie Jack. If I don't do what she tells me to, she's gonna jump out of my computer and rip my bloody arms off. [1]) 2. Do the paperwork: get my second citizenship, abandon the Australian citizenship, do everything I can to protest Australia and never, ever, contribute to its well-being ever again - this means never going back, removing my assets and resources from the Australian economy, and so on. Hmmm. 3. Submit to a TAN/TCN when/if it happens, but somehow sabotage the work such that it doesn't quite work out. The True Aussie Way™. 4. Insist on working only on software that never tracks the user in any way, whatsoever. This would mean quitting my current job, which already involves tracking people (with their full approval) for productive (non-espionage/law-enforcement) purposes, and finding something with a strict no-data policy. I guess I'm gonna go with #4. Well, #2 seems a bit more appealing, actually. Please, I beg of you .. let me walk tall in Australia! [2] -- [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnEOr1MgwTM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnEOr1MgwTM [2] - https://youtu.be/8PfDro1UGUo?t=158 https://youtu.be/8PfDro1UGUo?t=158
- sheepmullet 8y ago
  > I'm considering giving up my Australian citizenship over this Then you never should have had it in the first place.
  - dang 8y ago
    That crosses into incivility and you can't post like that here. More importantly, it looks like you've been using HN primarily for political and ideological arguments. That's an abuse of this site, because it destroys the intellectual curiosity that it exists for. So we ban accounts that do this. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and use HN as intended from now on, we'd appreciate it.
    - fit2rule 8y ago
      Thank you for this. I've been subject to these site rules myself, and felt my ire rise when it happens that I've been on the wrong side of them (with political discussions), but this particular response absolutely infuriated me and I am grateful for the rules being applied in my favour, for once.
    - taneq 8y ago
      As a random HN reader, I just want to thank you for being our adult supervision.
- blu_prussian 8y ago
  >Can the Australian government compel me to sabotage the Australian software for their uses within Australia, and if so, can the Austrian government charge me with a crime for having done it while living in Austria? I know less about the law than other posters, but I don't think there's much of an inference in the legislation of these notices being contingent on nationality or citizenship when you're overseas. If the bill transcends borders like that then there's surely no end. Seeing as it's as broad a net as "software serving end users in Australia", it could literally affect millions of people/nationals/workers outside Aus borders, and have catastrophic economic consequences at which point the whole insane thing unravels and the absurdity of it becomes clear. But yeah, you and me both man, as soon as I'm able I'll try and fall on my dual citizenship, if it's not too late by then. This is infuriating both in terms of ethics and logistics

by jeeeeb 8y ago

fit2rule 8y ago

I'm an Australian software developer, living in Europe and working for a European company (Austria) which has an Australian partner developing software for use in both the Australian and European markets. Can the Australian government compel me to sabotage the Australian software for their uses within Australia, and if so, can the Austrian government charge me with a crime for having done it while living in Austria? The fact that I even have to ask this kind of question enrages me. I'm considering giving up my Australian citizenship over this, it is that infuriating.

jeeeeb 8y ago
I was worried about this as well which is why I read the law and commented above. The short answer is: 1. Non-compliance with a TAN/TCN is a civil not a criminal mater 2. As I stated above the law clearly says that it is a defence for non-compliance if a TAN/TCN would compel you to commit a crime in a foreign country. The issue is whether you can be compelled to commit an act in Australia, which would be a crime in a foreign country. 3. Consideration must be given to your legitimate interests. In short, if you get a TAN/TCN then seek legal advice.
- verroq 8y ago
  I thought a TAN/TCN also comes with a gag order.
  - jeeeeb 8y ago
    There are exceptions to this, including for seeking legal advice. If you think the law effects you then I highly recommend reading the entire text, as passed by parliament: https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;db=LEGISLATION;id=legislation%2Fbills%2Fr6195_aspassed%2F0001;query=Id%3A%22legislation%2Fbills%2Fr6195_aspassed%2F0000%22 https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display....
- fit2rule 8y ago
  Well, I'm working on software systems that are precisely the sort of thing that the Australian government will target with this law (transportation systems), and it is highly likely that these systems will be targeted with a TAN/TCN. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the software segment that I currently work on is going to be hit by this law, and hard, within the next year or so. If I don't get a TAN/TCN request, I'm almost 100% sure that someone within the group of companies I am working, will. And I want none of that. So I feel strongly enough about the tyranny and evil of the Australian government that it looks like I'm going to be giving up my Australian citizenship. Oh, wait: "We will not approve your application to renounce your citizenship if you do not have another foreign citizenship or it is not in Australia’s interests." [emphasis added] What an extraordinarily evil thing for the Australian government to have done to its citizens. Well then, some other options: 0. Do the typical Australian thing: "she'll be right mate!", and stick my head in the sand, hoping that ignoring the bad man will make him go away. This seems to work for a lot of Australians, so might work for me. Could be, I'll never be the subject of a TAN/TCN, but then again, why risk it. 1. I could change my profession. However, this would mean that over time, only the types of people who are willing to act as repressive agents of the Australian government would be found in the software industry. This is really a non-savoury outcome, as I have over 30 years in the software industry and am very proud of the good I have done in this field - I would hate to turn it over to such cunts who think its fine to spy for the Australian Fascist Overlords. I know they're out there - people like me are keeping them from taking over, completely. (A brief moment of brevity for the poor Australians reading this: Fuck. The Australian Government is literally Auntie Jack. If I don't do what she tells me to, she's gonna jump out of my computer and rip my bloody arms off. [1]) 2. Do the paperwork: get my second citizenship, abandon the Australian citizenship, do everything I can to protest Australia and never, ever, contribute to its well-being ever again - this means never going back, removing my assets and resources from the Australian economy, and so on. Hmmm. 3. Submit to a TAN/TCN when/if it happens, but somehow sabotage the work such that it doesn't quite work out. The True Aussie Way™. 4. Insist on working only on software that never tracks the user in any way, whatsoever. This would mean quitting my current job, which already involves tracking people (with their full approval) for productive (non-espionage/law-enforcement) purposes, and finding something with a strict no-data policy. I guess I'm gonna go with #4. Well, #2 seems a bit more appealing, actually. Please, I beg of you .. let me walk tall in Australia! [2] -- [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnEOr1MgwTM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnEOr1MgwTM [2] - https://youtu.be/8PfDro1UGUo?t=158 https://youtu.be/8PfDro1UGUo?t=158
sheepmullet 8y ago
> I'm considering giving up my Australian citizenship over this Then you never should have had it in the first place.
- dang 8y ago
  That crosses into incivility and you can't post like that here. More importantly, it looks like you've been using HN primarily for political and ideological arguments. That's an abuse of this site, because it destroys the intellectual curiosity that it exists for. So we ban accounts that do this. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and use HN as intended from now on, we'd appreciate it.
  - fit2rule 8y ago
    Thank you for this. I've been subject to these site rules myself, and felt my ire rise when it happens that I've been on the wrong side of them (with political discussions), but this particular response absolutely infuriated me and I am grateful for the rules being applied in my favour, for once.
  - taneq 8y ago
    As a random HN reader, I just want to thank you for being our adult supervision.
blu_prussian 8y ago
>Can the Australian government compel me to sabotage the Australian software for their uses within Australia, and if so, can the Austrian government charge me with a crime for having done it while living in Austria? I know less about the law than other posters, but I don't think there's much of an inference in the legislation of these notices being contingent on nationality or citizenship when you're overseas. If the bill transcends borders like that then there's surely no end. Seeing as it's as broad a net as "software serving end users in Australia", it could literally affect millions of people/nationals/workers outside Aus borders, and have catastrophic economic consequences at which point the whole insane thing unravels and the absurdity of it becomes clear. But yeah, you and me both man, as soon as I'm able I'll try and fall on my dual citizenship, if it's not too late by then. This is infuriating both in terms of ethics and logistics