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Because not all societies enshrine individual freedom as their primary value. China has historically valued orderliness, collective well-being, and personal sa

Because not all societies enshrine individual freedom as their primary value. China has historically valued orderliness, collective well-being, and personal sacrifice. This sucks from a Western perspective, but it also means that a great many of the problems the West faces will never manifest in China. There are very few absolute wrongs in the world and it's not clear that this would be one of them.

skrebbel 8y ago
> orderliness, collective well-being, and personal sacrifice I don't know, most Chinese people I've met are at least as selfish as the average Westerner, often more (and let's not even begin about the stereotypical "I don't care about anything" 60 year old Chinese tourist). I'm no expert, but while surely many Chinese rulers have emphasized these values, I'm not convinced that the population ever cared much about them. They're a splendid list of values to drum up, though, if you're the one whose boot indefinitely stamps on your subordinates' collective faces.
- baobrain 8y ago
  I'm not sure how bringing up personal experiences and racial stereotypes contributes to any conversation, especially when it is about the entire population of China (1.4 billion), its culture, and its history. I highly recommend reading about the mandate of heaven[0]. While not particularly relevant anymore, it is important context to the cultural attitudes of your average Chinese citizen. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_of_Heaven https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_of_Heaven
- n4r9 8y ago
  To be fair, there's often a significant contrast between the way someone behaves and the societal values they espouse. In some cases they almost seem to be anti-correlated.
- methodover 8y ago
  > China has historically valued orderliness, collective well-being, and personal sacrifice. This sucks from a Western perspective, but it also means that a great many of the problems the West faces will never manifest in China. Like what?
ElBarto 8y ago
Chinese value personal freedom and do enjoy quite a lot of it, actually. In fact, I'd say that Chinese society allows more individuality and freedom than e.g. Japanese society.
- Kaveren 8y ago
  I thought your name was familiar. You were the same person who implied that anyone who doesn't visit China isn't allowed to have an opinion, and blew off human rights abuses [0]. Why you insist on defending China with such rigor, I'm not sure. No, the Chinese people do not have quite a lot of personal freedom. You have no right to freedom of speech in the sense anyone in a Western country does. You do not have the freedom to a transparent judicial process. You do not have the freedom not to be monitored by the government for being the wrong ethnic group. I find that you in particular refuse to reply to the content of arguments, even when prodded. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18361217 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18361217
  - ElBarto 8y ago
    I am not defending anything. I find the trend of accusing others of defending something simply because they refuse to join the mob quite worrying. I am just stating simple facts in a dispassionate way. Considering the distorted way any country (and especially China) is represented in the media and in some comments I read here (including yours, which close to hysterical) the best advice is indeed to withhold strong opinions if you have no direct experience and knowledge. I don't deny the drastic restrictions in force in China regarding Rights with a capital R, but again in practice they do enjoy as many practical rights as we do in daily life and Chinese society is in fact much less 'oppressive' than, say, Japan. The way you keep track of my comments and your ad hominem attacks could be construed as bullying and harassment, by the way.
    - Kaveren 8y ago
      I don't really keep track of your comments, but your username and topic combination sounded familiar, so I checked to see if you were the same personn. I think topical context with a commenter is relevant, just as my past remarks on China are. If someone wants to construe "refuse to reply to the content of arguments" (as opposed to replying on the basis of where someone lives) as bullying and harassment, so be it. I don't deny that if you conform in China you have nothing to worry about. It's no warzone. But it is not a friendly country to those who are not conformists or are minorities, and may not toe the Party line. As an example, the Uyghurs are a sizable group for whom are consistently oppressed by the government. This is not a distortion of any kind. We know about the intense surveillance (more intrusive than normal Chinese citizen surveillance), the "re-education camps", et cetera. Direct experience can only serve to confirm or deny facts, it does not change them. It's also much harder for direct experience to be of any value without a free press to challenge government narratives.

skrebbel 8y ago

> orderliness, collective well-being, and personal sacrifice I don't know, most Chinese people I've met are at least as selfish as the average Westerner, often more (and let's not even begin about the stereotypical "I don't care about anything" 60 year old Chinese tourist). I'm no expert, but while surely many Chinese rulers have emphasized these values, I'm not convinced that the population ever cared much about them. They're a splendid list of values to drum up, though, if you're the one whose boot indefinitely stamps on your subordinates' collective faces.

baobrain 8y ago
I'm not sure how bringing up personal experiences and racial stereotypes contributes to any conversation, especially when it is about the entire population of China (1.4 billion), its culture, and its history. I highly recommend reading about the mandate of heaven[0]. While not particularly relevant anymore, it is important context to the cultural attitudes of your average Chinese citizen. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_of_Heaven https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_of_Heaven
n4r9 8y ago
To be fair, there's often a significant contrast between the way someone behaves and the societal values they espouse. In some cases they almost seem to be anti-correlated.
methodover 8y ago
> China has historically valued orderliness, collective well-being, and personal sacrifice. This sucks from a Western perspective, but it also means that a great many of the problems the West faces will never manifest in China. Like what?

ElBarto 8y ago

Chinese value personal freedom and do enjoy quite a lot of it, actually. In fact, I'd say that Chinese society allows more individuality and freedom than e.g. Japanese society.

Kaveren 8y ago
I thought your name was familiar. You were the same person who implied that anyone who doesn't visit China isn't allowed to have an opinion, and blew off human rights abuses [0]. Why you insist on defending China with such rigor, I'm not sure. No, the Chinese people do not have quite a lot of personal freedom. You have no right to freedom of speech in the sense anyone in a Western country does. You do not have the freedom to a transparent judicial process. You do not have the freedom not to be monitored by the government for being the wrong ethnic group. I find that you in particular refuse to reply to the content of arguments, even when prodded. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18361217 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18361217
- ElBarto 8y ago
  I am not defending anything. I find the trend of accusing others of defending something simply because they refuse to join the mob quite worrying. I am just stating simple facts in a dispassionate way. Considering the distorted way any country (and especially China) is represented in the media and in some comments I read here (including yours, which close to hysterical) the best advice is indeed to withhold strong opinions if you have no direct experience and knowledge. I don't deny the drastic restrictions in force in China regarding Rights with a capital R, but again in practice they do enjoy as many practical rights as we do in daily life and Chinese society is in fact much less 'oppressive' than, say, Japan. The way you keep track of my comments and your ad hominem attacks could be construed as bullying and harassment, by the way.
  - Kaveren 8y ago
    I don't really keep track of your comments, but your username and topic combination sounded familiar, so I checked to see if you were the same personn. I think topical context with a commenter is relevant, just as my past remarks on China are. If someone wants to construe "refuse to reply to the content of arguments" (as opposed to replying on the basis of where someone lives) as bullying and harassment, so be it. I don't deny that if you conform in China you have nothing to worry about. It's no warzone. But it is not a friendly country to those who are not conformists or are minorities, and may not toe the Party line. As an example, the Uyghurs are a sizable group for whom are consistently oppressed by the government. This is not a distortion of any kind. We know about the intense surveillance (more intrusive than normal Chinese citizen surveillance), the "re-education camps", et cetera. Direct experience can only serve to confirm or deny facts, it does not change them. It's also much harder for direct experience to be of any value without a free press to challenge government narratives.