9 ms·

Show HN: MicroMDM – Open Source MDM Server for Apple Devices

146 points by zalmoxes 8y ago

urda 8y ago
I'm curious do any HN readers manage their personal devices through MDM with their own profiles, and what benefits are you seeing from that?
- zalmoxes 8y ago
  The server is only meant for enterprise deployments. It would be pretty hard to do this on a personal level because you need to apply for an enterprise account with Apple, and request a very specific push certificate option.
  - metabeard 8y ago
    You can't even sign up for the Enterprise program if your Apple ID is associated with the Apple Developer Program. You'll get the following error when signing up: > Your Apple ID is already associated with a Team Agent enrolled in this program
    - no_wizard 8y ago
      You should contact developer relations they can get you hooked up with the same account
  - hsk0823 8y ago
    Anyone can get a push certificate, it's not just businesses, https://identity.apple.com/pushcert/ https://identity.apple.com/pushcert/
    - zalmoxes 8y ago
      MDM push notifications require to be signed by a special certificate, which is only available upon request.
    - kiallmacinnes 8y ago
      While that is true, anyone can get a push notification cert, this is a different cert..
  - ghostly_s 8y ago
    Setting up Mobile Device Management itself is not particularly onerous, it's definitely best practice to create a new Apple ID for that purpose, however. A technical individual can already do this easily enough with the freely-available Meraki MDM. The Device Enrollment Program I believe is more complicated and inaccessible to individuals (haven't dealt with this personally), and is quickly becoming a prerequisite for many of the more invasive and useful capabilities, like the kext signing and deployment mentioned on the MicroMDM homepage.
    - robinwassen 8y ago
      Meraki MDM is not free anymore AFAIK. But if you signed up while they offered the 100 free devices plan it's still valid.
      - ghostly_s 8y ago
        Hm, guess I missed that...and their offering has a long way to go before I'd consider it worth paying for. An alternative then might be Jamf, they recently started offering a free tier with a handful of devices for their hosted 'Jamf Now' MDM (or at least it's free via their promotions on sites like Daring Fireball).
- ecesena 8y ago
  I just learned from a colleague that you can install a MDM if you have a Google Apps account. Of course now I want to try MicroMDM first. I think the major benefit is that this way you control the MDM, and you don't risk that a MDM gets installed on your phone unexpectedly, sort of like a rootkit.
- hsk0823 8y ago
  There are HN readers who are Directors of IT at their place of employment
  - ghostly_s 8y ago
    That wasn't the question.
- robinwassen 8y ago
  I manage our devices at work but not my personal devices. If you have a lot of devices (think 10+) I guess it could be useful to keep them aligned. It could also be useful as training on how to centrally manage devices. But I would not recommend using a MDM unless you have a specific reason. Personal devices that you have physical control over are easy to manage locally on the device. Adding a MDM also adds another attack vector, if the MDM is compromised all your devices are at risk.
- kiallmacinnes 8y ago
  Do I do it for my personal devices? No. Do I see any benefits? Nope! But ... when have I let that stop me from running something wildly inappropriate for a single user "enterprise"! I don't own anything apple, so I'm unlikely to ever run this MDM, but, if a good Android one came to my attention.. maybe? I'm geeky enough to enjoy doing it, even if it comes with no real benefits to me.
- andrewaylett 8y ago
  I'm administrator for GSuite for the school I'm a trustee of, so my personal (Android) device is enrolled by virtue of me wanting to know how it works and also wanting my school email on that device. I'm not sure it would be worthwhile setting up for personal use -- the policies it lets you set aren't doing anything other than ensuring you're following best practices (like setting a screen lock) so you don't gain anything over just doing that, and the direct management tools aren't any finer-grained than you can get from Google's Find My Device. I'm not sure you're able to set up a linked "for work" profile without MDM; that might be a benefit if you want compartmentalisation.
  - pmh 8y ago
    If you don't care about the managed Google Play store, you could always use Google's TestDPC app (or create your own) to create a work profile ("do-not-use-in-production" warnings notwithstanding): https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.afwsamples.testdpc https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.afwsamples... That said, it might be more straightforward to just use another user on your device
- walterbell 8y ago
  Apple Configurator 2 can be used locally to set some policies which are only available on "supervised" devices, e.g. prevent USB pairing with unknown computers.
- nicoburns 8y ago
  I don't, but I absolutely would for my children's devices (when I have children). Limiting time using certain apps, etc would be great.
  - giobox 8y ago
    I think the new parental controls iOS and Android have recently introduced are far more effective for this than using MDM, personally. These features are specifically designed for this use case.
- cynix 8y ago
  I manage the personal devices of my family members (wife, parents, in-laws) through MDM. My parents and in-laws are quite tech-illiterate, so it helps to be able to enforce some restrictions via profiles to prevent them from doing stupid things to their own devices, and thus reduce the time I have to spend on providing tech support (across the ocean no less). It's also useful for distributing Wi-Fi/VPN configs so I can enforce that VPN must be used on untrusted Wi-Fi, for example.
- stephenr 8y ago
  I don't use an MDM server/service specifically, but I use a profile (built and installed via Apple Configurator 2 over USB) to install certificates+keys for S/MIME. The nice part is I can use the same profile on a Mac too.
tootie 8y ago
This seems like the kind of thing Apple should be offering on their own already. But ultimately you're not going to see many enterprises adopt an Apple-only MDM unless they just love vendor lock-in to the most expensive vendor. Negativity aside, I applaud the effort. The MDM space is messy and crowded with bloated products. I hope these guys can at the very least pop the bubble a bit.
- hsk0823 8y ago
  Apple has absolutely no desire to go into the device management business. They make the devices, they don't provide IT departments with any in house tools, the entire macOS management ecosystem has risen from a need and it's a mish mash of different vendors / open source tools / approaches to skin the cat that is device management.
  - beager 8y ago
    Apple is actively trying to sell me MDM services. So they may not be in the business of making it easy, but they're certainly in the business of making money on it.
    - brazzledazzle 8y ago
      Isn’t that their pro-services offering where they monkeyed together a bunch of enterprise scripts for bugs/shortfalls Apple will never fix/implement? Last I checked, I think the only MDM “service” they offer is evaluating your situation as part of the enterprise package and no matter what telling you to use JAMF.
  - tootie 8y ago
    They already took a baby step in by acquiring TestFlight. It's a more dev/QA-centric product, but it overlaps with MDM. Google is already in the MDM space for Chrome devices. Apple has already been remarkably successful in the enterprise space despite seemingly never going after it. Vendors like Square are deploying thousands of iPads to retail spaces. I think there's a huge opportunity there.
zalmoxes 8y ago
Hi, I'm the author(along with several other developers). MicroMDM is used in some enterprise environments and was recently mentioned in a number of security presentations regarding Apple's MDM and Device Enrollment Program services. https://duo.com/labs/research/mdm-me-maybe https://duo.com/labs/research/mdm-me-maybe https://i.blackhat.com/us-18/Thu-August-9/us-18-Endahl-A-Deep-Dive-Into-macOS-MDM-And-How-It-Can-Be-Compromised-wp.pdf https://i.blackhat.com/us-18/Thu-August-9/us-18-Endahl-A-Dee...
- walterbell 8y ago
  Do you know if a small business can use DEP features? Could per-app VPNs be used without DEP? If so, could they be used with MicroMDM, native iOS IPSEC client and an open-source VPN server, or is a 3rd-party VPN client like Cisco required for per-app VPN?
  - zalmoxes 8y ago
    Anyone can use DEP, just need a DUNS number to enroll into the program, and then to purchase devices from apple direct, or from an approved reseller. Unfortunately you cannot retroactively add devices that were already purchased. DEP is not required for the VPN profile configs, that can be applied with just MDM (or even manually). The VPN payloads are documented here https://developer.apple.com/enterprise/documentation/Configuration-Profile-Reference.pdf https://developer.apple.com/enterprise/documentation/Configu...
    - walterbell 8y ago
      Are those the same profiles generated by Apple Configurator 2? I was able to get per-site Safari VPNs added by manually editing XML in the profile, but no success with per-application VPNs. Commercial MDM providers only whitelist a handful of VPN client apps for per-app VPN profiles. Why are those needed when there is already a native iOS VPN client for IPSEC?
      - zalmoxes 8y ago
markovbot 8y ago
what other open source MDM software is out there that aren't Apple-only? Specifically I'd like to manage Android phones and maybe Linux laptops (but I doubt I'll find that)
- tootie 8y ago
  I think you largely get what you pay for. Industry standard is either AirWatch or Soti.
pharaohgeek 8y ago
Reading through Apple's MDM protocol documentation and coding up one yourself is a great learning exercise. I had an idea for a niche MDM product and coded up a proof of concept. Eventually I realized the idea wasn't profitable, but still got a lot of value out of the development exercise. I even rewrote it from Java into a couple of different languages (Kotlin, Swift, Go...) to learn a bit more. It's a sufficiently difficult service to implement that you learn quite a bit along the way, but not so difficult that you don't see any progress as you go.

146 points by zalmoxes 8y ago

urda 8y ago

I'm curious do any HN readers manage their personal devices through MDM with their own profiles, and what benefits are you seeing from that?

zalmoxes 8y ago
The server is only meant for enterprise deployments. It would be pretty hard to do this on a personal level because you need to apply for an enterprise account with Apple, and request a very specific push certificate option.
- metabeard 8y ago
  You can't even sign up for the Enterprise program if your Apple ID is associated with the Apple Developer Program. You'll get the following error when signing up: > Your Apple ID is already associated with a Team Agent enrolled in this program
  - no_wizard 8y ago
    You should contact developer relations they can get you hooked up with the same account
- hsk0823 8y ago
  Anyone can get a push certificate, it's not just businesses, https://identity.apple.com/pushcert/ https://identity.apple.com/pushcert/
  - zalmoxes 8y ago
    MDM push notifications require to be signed by a special certificate, which is only available upon request.
  - kiallmacinnes 8y ago
    While that is true, anyone can get a push notification cert, this is a different cert..
- ghostly_s 8y ago
  Setting up Mobile Device Management itself is not particularly onerous, it's definitely best practice to create a new Apple ID for that purpose, however. A technical individual can already do this easily enough with the freely-available Meraki MDM. The Device Enrollment Program I believe is more complicated and inaccessible to individuals (haven't dealt with this personally), and is quickly becoming a prerequisite for many of the more invasive and useful capabilities, like the kext signing and deployment mentioned on the MicroMDM homepage.
  - robinwassen 8y ago
    Meraki MDM is not free anymore AFAIK. But if you signed up while they offered the 100 free devices plan it's still valid.
    - ghostly_s 8y ago
      Hm, guess I missed that...and their offering has a long way to go before I'd consider it worth paying for. An alternative then might be Jamf, they recently started offering a free tier with a handful of devices for their hosted 'Jamf Now' MDM (or at least it's free via their promotions on sites like Daring Fireball).
ecesena 8y ago
I just learned from a colleague that you can install a MDM if you have a Google Apps account. Of course now I want to try MicroMDM first. I think the major benefit is that this way you control the MDM, and you don't risk that a MDM gets installed on your phone unexpectedly, sort of like a rootkit.
hsk0823 8y ago
There are HN readers who are Directors of IT at their place of employment
- ghostly_s 8y ago
  That wasn't the question.
robinwassen 8y ago
I manage our devices at work but not my personal devices. If you have a lot of devices (think 10+) I guess it could be useful to keep them aligned. It could also be useful as training on how to centrally manage devices. But I would not recommend using a MDM unless you have a specific reason. Personal devices that you have physical control over are easy to manage locally on the device. Adding a MDM also adds another attack vector, if the MDM is compromised all your devices are at risk.
kiallmacinnes 8y ago
Do I do it for my personal devices? No. Do I see any benefits? Nope! But ... when have I let that stop me from running something wildly inappropriate for a single user "enterprise"! I don't own anything apple, so I'm unlikely to ever run this MDM, but, if a good Android one came to my attention.. maybe? I'm geeky enough to enjoy doing it, even if it comes with no real benefits to me.
andrewaylett 8y ago
I'm administrator for GSuite for the school I'm a trustee of, so my personal (Android) device is enrolled by virtue of me wanting to know how it works and also wanting my school email on that device. I'm not sure it would be worthwhile setting up for personal use -- the policies it lets you set aren't doing anything other than ensuring you're following best practices (like setting a screen lock) so you don't gain anything over just doing that, and the direct management tools aren't any finer-grained than you can get from Google's Find My Device. I'm not sure you're able to set up a linked "for work" profile without MDM; that might be a benefit if you want compartmentalisation.
- pmh 8y ago
  If you don't care about the managed Google Play store, you could always use Google's TestDPC app (or create your own) to create a work profile ("do-not-use-in-production" warnings notwithstanding): https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.afwsamples.testdpc https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.afwsamples... That said, it might be more straightforward to just use another user on your device
walterbell 8y ago
Apple Configurator 2 can be used locally to set some policies which are only available on "supervised" devices, e.g. prevent USB pairing with unknown computers.
nicoburns 8y ago
I don't, but I absolutely would for my children's devices (when I have children). Limiting time using certain apps, etc would be great.
- giobox 8y ago
  I think the new parental controls iOS and Android have recently introduced are far more effective for this than using MDM, personally. These features are specifically designed for this use case.
cynix 8y ago
I manage the personal devices of my family members (wife, parents, in-laws) through MDM. My parents and in-laws are quite tech-illiterate, so it helps to be able to enforce some restrictions via profiles to prevent them from doing stupid things to their own devices, and thus reduce the time I have to spend on providing tech support (across the ocean no less). It's also useful for distributing Wi-Fi/VPN configs so I can enforce that VPN must be used on untrusted Wi-Fi, for example.
stephenr 8y ago
I don't use an MDM server/service specifically, but I use a profile (built and installed via Apple Configurator 2 over USB) to install certificates+keys for S/MIME. The nice part is I can use the same profile on a Mac too.

tootie 8y ago

This seems like the kind of thing Apple should be offering on their own already. But ultimately you're not going to see many enterprises adopt an Apple-only MDM unless they just love vendor lock-in to the most expensive vendor. Negativity aside, I applaud the effort. The MDM space is messy and crowded with bloated products. I hope these guys can at the very least pop the bubble a bit.

hsk0823 8y ago
Apple has absolutely no desire to go into the device management business. They make the devices, they don't provide IT departments with any in house tools, the entire macOS management ecosystem has risen from a need and it's a mish mash of different vendors / open source tools / approaches to skin the cat that is device management.
- beager 8y ago
  Apple is actively trying to sell me MDM services. So they may not be in the business of making it easy, but they're certainly in the business of making money on it.
  - brazzledazzle 8y ago
    Isn’t that their pro-services offering where they monkeyed together a bunch of enterprise scripts for bugs/shortfalls Apple will never fix/implement? Last I checked, I think the only MDM “service” they offer is evaluating your situation as part of the enterprise package and no matter what telling you to use JAMF.
- tootie 8y ago
  They already took a baby step in by acquiring TestFlight. It's a more dev/QA-centric product, but it overlaps with MDM. Google is already in the MDM space for Chrome devices. Apple has already been remarkably successful in the enterprise space despite seemingly never going after it. Vendors like Square are deploying thousands of iPads to retail spaces. I think there's a huge opportunity there.

zalmoxes 8y ago

Hi, I'm the author(along with several other developers). MicroMDM is used in some enterprise environments and was recently mentioned in a number of security presentations regarding Apple's MDM and Device Enrollment Program services. https://duo.com/labs/research/mdm-me-maybe https://duo.com/labs/research/mdm-me-maybe https://i.blackhat.com/us-18/Thu-August-9/us-18-Endahl-A-Deep-Dive-Into-macOS-MDM-And-How-It-Can-Be-Compromised-wp.pdf https://i.blackhat.com/us-18/Thu-August-9/us-18-Endahl-A-Dee...

walterbell 8y ago
Do you know if a small business can use DEP features? Could per-app VPNs be used without DEP? If so, could they be used with MicroMDM, native iOS IPSEC client and an open-source VPN server, or is a 3rd-party VPN client like Cisco required for per-app VPN?
- zalmoxes 8y ago
  Anyone can use DEP, just need a DUNS number to enroll into the program, and then to purchase devices from apple direct, or from an approved reseller. Unfortunately you cannot retroactively add devices that were already purchased. DEP is not required for the VPN profile configs, that can be applied with just MDM (or even manually). The VPN payloads are documented here https://developer.apple.com/enterprise/documentation/Configuration-Profile-Reference.pdf https://developer.apple.com/enterprise/documentation/Configu...
  - walterbell 8y ago
    Are those the same profiles generated by Apple Configurator 2? I was able to get per-site Safari VPNs added by manually editing XML in the profile, but no success with per-application VPNs. Commercial MDM providers only whitelist a handful of VPN client apps for per-app VPN profiles. Why are those needed when there is already a native iOS VPN client for IPSEC?
    - zalmoxes 8y ago

markovbot 8y ago

what other open source MDM software is out there that aren't Apple-only? Specifically I'd like to manage Android phones and maybe Linux laptops (but I doubt I'll find that)

tootie 8y ago
I think you largely get what you pay for. Industry standard is either AirWatch or Soti.

pharaohgeek 8y ago

Reading through Apple's MDM protocol documentation and coding up one yourself is a great learning exercise. I had an idea for a niche MDM product and coded up a proof of concept. Eventually I realized the idea wasn't profitable, but still got a lot of value out of the development exercise. I even rewrote it from Java into a couple of different languages (Kotlin, Swift, Go...) to learn a bit more. It's a sufficiently difficult service to implement that you learn quite a bit along the way, but not so difficult that you don't see any progress as you go.