4 ms·

I'll take a stab. Two ways in which that could be so is - Your society succumbs to accumulative negative side affects that lead to a civilization scale heart

I'll take a stab. Two ways in which that could be so is - Your society succumbs to accumulative negative side affects that lead to a civilization scale heart attack. Pollution, barbarians, (lack of) land reform, diversity zoo taxing coordination ability. Your society is too rigorous at its maintenance - initially hypersuccessful but becomes overtaken by competitors that managed to bottle enough chaos to produce improvement without falling apart. Analogy being a very clean human would have an unhealthy immune system or homogenous microbiome - making them susceptible. China might be the archetype. Were either of these what you had in mind? Both include predation but are almost at odds. The main idea might be that a society needs to exercise in many different ways to have a high adaptability score but not too much. This is in the zip code of what David Krakauer (complex systems theory) seems to worry about too. He seems to suggest that we should be teaching children and ourselves lots of useless skills (reading the classics?) because they could exercise our brains in productive ways - that the use of technology to replace human cognition can be a trap.

dredmorbius 8y ago
Pretty close t what I have in mind. Threats may be exogenous (extinction-level asteroid strike, gamma-ray burst, ...), or endogenous (anthropogenic climate change, nuclear winter, ...). With time and scale, the latter seems to become more likely. Many of these endogenous effects are essentially unforseen consequences, though there might be other descriptions which fit (denial / willful blindness among them). Almost all operate as hygiene dynamics, that is, the failure to sustain or support vigorous, healthful function, not merely of individuals, but at a social or societal level. The etymology, and specific recognition by the Greeks of hygieine techne, "the healthful art", being notable: https://www.etymonline.com/word/hygiene#etymonline_v_16114 https://www.etymonline.com/word/hygiene#etymonline_v_16114 Eventually, all creatures foul their own nests. Even with mitigations, this is inevitable. Some waste product or effect will prove limiting. The effects also virtually always prove to be unintended consequences. See Robert K. Morton. Excess cleanliness or vigilance seems to have several negative dynamics. Quashing internal ambition or creativity, as happenned historically with China, is one. Removing selective pressure, possibly another. Giving rise to pathologically reactive social security apparratus, as with police violence, ICE overreach, and excess NSA/CIA/FBI (or NON-US equivalents), akin to autoimmine disorders, another. Competitive pressures are probably another dynamic, worth consideration. Thanks for mentioning them.
- bachbach 8y ago
  We could talk all day but sadly I must go to work to obtain those calories! ;-) It's always fun talking with you though and I appreciate it. I'll make one point though. > Removing selective pressure, possibly another. I think this one is underrated - there is a strong incentive for us to want to believe the removal of pressure is a good thing - then call that problem solved - it's a black box we no longer think about and close shop on that. You may know of Mike Rowe - the blue collar jobs advocate. I think he and David Krakauer are often saying something similar - which is that a loss of contact with the tools in our brains which solve certain problems can (sometimes) produce stagnation as individuals and society - it gets us flying away from Musk's 'first principals' beliefs. The whole video is worth watching but this short segment illustrates the point: https://youtu.be/pi7h6nmkvAM?t=1900 https://youtu.be/pi7h6nmkvAM?t=1900

dredmorbius 8y ago

Pretty close t what I have in mind. Threats may be exogenous (extinction-level asteroid strike, gamma-ray burst, ...), or endogenous (anthropogenic climate change, nuclear winter, ...). With time and scale, the latter seems to become more likely. Many of these endogenous effects are essentially unforseen consequences, though there might be other descriptions which fit (denial / willful blindness among them). Almost all operate as hygiene dynamics, that is, the failure to sustain or support vigorous, healthful function, not merely of individuals, but at a social or societal level. The etymology, and specific recognition by the Greeks of hygieine techne, "the healthful art", being notable: https://www.etymonline.com/word/hygiene#etymonline_v_16114 https://www.etymonline.com/word/hygiene#etymonline_v_16114 Eventually, all creatures foul their own nests. Even with mitigations, this is inevitable. Some waste product or effect will prove limiting. The effects also virtually always prove to be unintended consequences. See Robert K. Morton. Excess cleanliness or vigilance seems to have several negative dynamics. Quashing internal ambition or creativity, as happenned historically with China, is one. Removing selective pressure, possibly another. Giving rise to pathologically reactive social security apparratus, as with police violence, ICE overreach, and excess NSA/CIA/FBI (or NON-US equivalents), akin to autoimmine disorders, another. Competitive pressures are probably another dynamic, worth consideration. Thanks for mentioning them.

bachbach 8y ago
We could talk all day but sadly I must go to work to obtain those calories! ;-) It's always fun talking with you though and I appreciate it. I'll make one point though. > Removing selective pressure, possibly another. I think this one is underrated - there is a strong incentive for us to want to believe the removal of pressure is a good thing - then call that problem solved - it's a black box we no longer think about and close shop on that. You may know of Mike Rowe - the blue collar jobs advocate. I think he and David Krakauer are often saying something similar - which is that a loss of contact with the tools in our brains which solve certain problems can (sometimes) produce stagnation as individuals and society - it gets us flying away from Musk's 'first principals' beliefs. The whole video is worth watching but this short segment illustrates the point: https://youtu.be/pi7h6nmkvAM?t=1900 https://youtu.be/pi7h6nmkvAM?t=1900