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Oracle didn't own java 20 years ago :) That said there's a lot of FUD around Oracle ownership nowadays but most of it is moot since OpenJDK is the fundation of

by zcam 8y ago

Oracle didn't own java 20 years ago :) That said there's a lot of FUD around Oracle ownership nowadays but most of it is moot since OpenJDK is the fundation of Oracle's Java.

dnomad 8y ago
GraalVM is itself an open-source project that is licensed under the exact same license as OpenJDK [1]. Feel free to download it and build it yourself to be extra sure [2]. All the FUD around this stuff and Oracle is a bit comical. It's all... right there. [1] https://www.graalvm.org/docs/faq/ https://www.graalvm.org/docs/faq/ [2] https://github.com/oracle/graal https://github.com/oracle/graal
- zcam 8y ago
  Right it's also gpl my bad. The fact you can download and build it doesn't mean much in general tho.
- ptx 8y ago
  But it's not "all" there - some things are reserved for the enterprise edition. So if people start adopting it now in the hope that its remaining technical limitations will eventually be adressed, we might discover that the improvements only apply to the EE version, while the open source version is kept more or less where it is to encourage people to pay up.
  - dnomad 8y ago
    This is true of every freemium project, from Gitlab to all the commercial Linux distros that sell support+prop extensions on the side. Given that GraalVM is a virtual machine there's strong incentive to push it far and wide. History suggests that VMs that are free and widely available survive and thrive (eg Java and .NET) while VMs that are expensive and/or difficult to redistribute die (eg Smalltalk). Oracle's incentives here, seeing as they want languages and library developers and ultimately application developers to actually deploy on GraalVM, is to go "far and wide" and not deep and narrow when it comes to their customers. > its remaining technical limitations will eventually be adressed It's not clear there are any technical limitations that separate CE and EE. Supposedly EE is faster but I don't think anybody has proven this with real benchmarks. All of this is clearly documented in https://www.graalvm.org/docs/faq/ https://www.graalvm.org/docs/faq/.
    - divs1210 8y ago
      The native binary produced by Graal CE does not support runtime optimizations - that is EE only. As such, native binaries will start faster, but run slower. https://github.com/oracle/graal/issues/447#issuecomment-399524000 https://github.com/oracle/graal/issues/447#issuecomment-3995...
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - pritambaral 8y ago
      > This is true of every freemium project, from Gitlab to all the commercial Linux distros that sell support+prop extensions on the side. GitLab and RedHat have a quite different history with litigation than Oracle does.
  - repolfx 8y ago
    This is true of many, many open source projects and has always been true. My first Linux was SuSE. Had to pay for it. The source was there but if you wanted Linux in an easy to use form, not so much. It was no big deal to pay because I knew it was funding the open source work. My first smartphone was an Android phone. I've paid for them, sometimes mostly to get software upgrades, because the pure open source builds were not as good. I buy a Mac even though I mostly use open source apps available for Linux and even though parts of macOS are themselves open source, because I want the extra proprietary features. In the end most open source software I use is ultimately funded by better paid-for versions that people opt in to. The sky doesn't fall.
digitalzombie 8y ago
It's not like they did a hostile take over, sued Google for API, and dump their failing project to apache or anything. Or refused to give TCK to apache harmony project. Or hell even tons of anecdote of Oracle buying out services just to bilk people with more money until it rot. Or have a clause for anybody using Oracle DB cannot benchmark. I feel people easily forget or act as if past actions/history isn't a metric to judge a company by. You can't predict the future with your feeling you can only do it via past data/actions. That or is it tribalism dogma that their bread and butter tech is being harshly criticize?
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Google helped sink Sun with their Java fork and they could have bought Sun if they really cared about it. The only company besides Oracle that cared about Sun assets was IBM, and I very much doubt they would not have done the same thing to Google. After all, Sun would have liked to do it if the bank account had any money left. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYw3X4RZv6Y&feature=youtu.be&t=57m42s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYw3X4RZv6Y&feature=youtu.be... It was Sun who refused to give the TCK to Apache Harmony. It was Sun that had different licenses and price categories depending on which kind of Java and version one would be using in production. Some people easily forget or act as if past actions/history aren't a metric, while others forget who actually did them in first place.
  - easytiger 8y ago
    > Google helped sink Sun with their Java fork How did that have any effect on Sun? Their mobile strategy was dead with the death of Symbian
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      They enabled a workaround for OEMs not to pay for Java licenses on embedded deployment. Gosling refers to it.
      - easytiger 8y ago

by zcam 8y ago

Oracle didn't own java 20 years ago :) That said there's a lot of FUD around Oracle ownership nowadays but most of it is moot since OpenJDK is the fundation of Oracle's Java.

dnomad 8y ago

GraalVM is itself an open-source project that is licensed under the exact same license as OpenJDK [1]. Feel free to download it and build it yourself to be extra sure [2]. All the FUD around this stuff and Oracle is a bit comical. It's all... right there. [1] https://www.graalvm.org/docs/faq/ https://www.graalvm.org/docs/faq/ [2] https://github.com/oracle/graal https://github.com/oracle/graal

zcam 8y ago
Right it's also gpl my bad. The fact you can download and build it doesn't mean much in general tho.
ptx 8y ago
But it's not "all" there - some things are reserved for the enterprise edition. So if people start adopting it now in the hope that its remaining technical limitations will eventually be adressed, we might discover that the improvements only apply to the EE version, while the open source version is kept more or less where it is to encourage people to pay up.
- dnomad 8y ago
  This is true of every freemium project, from Gitlab to all the commercial Linux distros that sell support+prop extensions on the side. Given that GraalVM is a virtual machine there's strong incentive to push it far and wide. History suggests that VMs that are free and widely available survive and thrive (eg Java and .NET) while VMs that are expensive and/or difficult to redistribute die (eg Smalltalk). Oracle's incentives here, seeing as they want languages and library developers and ultimately application developers to actually deploy on GraalVM, is to go "far and wide" and not deep and narrow when it comes to their customers. > its remaining technical limitations will eventually be adressed It's not clear there are any technical limitations that separate CE and EE. Supposedly EE is faster but I don't think anybody has proven this with real benchmarks. All of this is clearly documented in https://www.graalvm.org/docs/faq/ https://www.graalvm.org/docs/faq/.
  - divs1210 8y ago
    The native binary produced by Graal CE does not support runtime optimizations - that is EE only. As such, native binaries will start faster, but run slower. https://github.com/oracle/graal/issues/447#issuecomment-399524000 https://github.com/oracle/graal/issues/447#issuecomment-3995...
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - pritambaral 8y ago
    > This is true of every freemium project, from Gitlab to all the commercial Linux distros that sell support+prop extensions on the side. GitLab and RedHat have a quite different history with litigation than Oracle does.
- repolfx 8y ago
  This is true of many, many open source projects and has always been true. My first Linux was SuSE. Had to pay for it. The source was there but if you wanted Linux in an easy to use form, not so much. It was no big deal to pay because I knew it was funding the open source work. My first smartphone was an Android phone. I've paid for them, sometimes mostly to get software upgrades, because the pure open source builds were not as good. I buy a Mac even though I mostly use open source apps available for Linux and even though parts of macOS are themselves open source, because I want the extra proprietary features. In the end most open source software I use is ultimately funded by better paid-for versions that people opt in to. The sky doesn't fall.

digitalzombie 8y ago

It's not like they did a hostile take over, sued Google for API, and dump their failing project to apache or anything. Or refused to give TCK to apache harmony project. Or hell even tons of anecdote of Oracle buying out services just to bilk people with more money until it rot. Or have a clause for anybody using Oracle DB cannot benchmark. I feel people easily forget or act as if past actions/history isn't a metric to judge a company by. You can't predict the future with your feeling you can only do it via past data/actions. That or is it tribalism dogma that their bread and butter tech is being harshly criticize?

pjmlp 8y ago
Google helped sink Sun with their Java fork and they could have bought Sun if they really cared about it. The only company besides Oracle that cared about Sun assets was IBM, and I very much doubt they would not have done the same thing to Google. After all, Sun would have liked to do it if the bank account had any money left. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYw3X4RZv6Y&feature=youtu.be&t=57m42s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYw3X4RZv6Y&feature=youtu.be... It was Sun who refused to give the TCK to Apache Harmony. It was Sun that had different licenses and price categories depending on which kind of Java and version one would be using in production. Some people easily forget or act as if past actions/history aren't a metric, while others forget who actually did them in first place.
- easytiger 8y ago
  > Google helped sink Sun with their Java fork How did that have any effect on Sun? Their mobile strategy was dead with the death of Symbian
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    They enabled a workaround for OEMs not to pay for Java licenses on embedded deployment. Gosling refers to it.
    - easytiger 8y ago