4 ms·

Anecdote, but my wife and I dropped out of the market recently and rented instead. The rent was 30-40% cheaper than a mortgage would have been on a similar plac

by pyoung 8y ago

Anecdote, but my wife and I dropped out of the market recently and rented instead. The rent was 30-40% cheaper than a mortgage would have been on a similar place (including taxes, insurance, etc...). So we figured we would just put the after-tax difference into a 401k (because 401k is pre-tax, for every dollar we 'saved' in housing cost, we are putting ~1.4 dollars into 401k). I figure that building equity in a house has similar investment timeline to the 401k, so it doesn't really bother me whether my net worth comes from one or the other, and unlike a house I can diversify the 401k via different index funds. In terms of ROI, the buy vs rent calculators are all starting to lean towards renting[1], so unless we are going to be in the same house for 12-15 years (unlikely) renting seems to win (and this assumes fairly good/neutral economic outlook, if you turn some of the knobs on the calculator to assume negative growth, oh boy...) . Add to the fact that most folks don't really know how the new tax laws will impact them until they do the calculations early next year, and the fact the rising interests rates should put downward pressure on the market, and the rather volatile political situation (who really knows where this tariff thing is going to go, and how it will impact the economy), and it just made more sense to wait it out. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/upshot/buy-rent-calculator.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/upshot/buy-rent-cal...

debacle 8y ago
You'll only be able to take advantage of that downward pressure if you have a large downpayment (and finance as little as possible).
- pyoung 8y ago
  I get what you are saying, but I think interest rates have a broader impact beyond just monthly payments. Real estate investors will start getting squeezed for example, so demand will dry up there. Also, I think downward prices impact the psychology of the market. Even if those price drops are entirely due to the rate increases (such that the monthly payment is the same), I imagine people will start getting nervous about jumping into a highly leveraged investment with falling prices, I know I would.
all_blue_chucks 8y ago
My house in Seattle has been appreciating by about $100k/year over the past five years. In other words, I'm making $100k/year on a $50k investment. You wont find returns like that in a 401k. And my interest payments are less than rent would be. Last but not least, home appreciation is TAX FREE up to half a million bucks. By all means, max out the $20k or so you are allowed to put into a 401k, but don't fool yourself into thinking it will outperform what is essentially a government-subsidized leveraged investment. You have to have exceptionally bad timing or move very frequently to lose in real estate.
- paulcole 8y ago
  It’s also quite difficult to go back in time and buy a house in Seattle 5 years ago. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that buying into what would become a ridiculously hot market is much more than dumb luck.
  - tjr225 8y ago
    I rent in a neighborhood in Seattle that has homes that sell from anywhere between 700k to tens of millions, and a lot of houses that I'm looking at aren't selling. The market is so saturated with people trying to sell their homes for more than they are worth, which is a notable change in what is an extremely hot housing market.
- lottin 8y ago
  You're talking about unrealised profits. In order for the profits to be realised you need to sell the house. So what happens then? Either you keep the profits and are left without a house, or you buy another house and are left without a profit. Because, you see, it's not only your particular house that has appreciated, all houses have.
  - techsupporter 8y ago
    Yep. I own where I live in Seattle and some of my younger-than-me friends and colleagues are routinely "you're so lucky, you're sitting on a gold mine!" Maybe so, but the sizzling hot housing market means I can't ever move to another place I own because, like you said, I'd have to take all of that appreciation and plow it right back into another property. Never mind that anything north of the ship canal is still completely unaffordable by my standards (that is, $450k or less, which is still a staggering sum of money in my world). I'd much rather do like the grandparent and have those gains as actual money in a 401k, not theoretical money in a house that I'd have to practically leave the time zone to realize.

by pyoung 8y ago

debacle 8y ago

You'll only be able to take advantage of that downward pressure if you have a large downpayment (and finance as little as possible).

pyoung 8y ago
I get what you are saying, but I think interest rates have a broader impact beyond just monthly payments. Real estate investors will start getting squeezed for example, so demand will dry up there. Also, I think downward prices impact the psychology of the market. Even if those price drops are entirely due to the rate increases (such that the monthly payment is the same), I imagine people will start getting nervous about jumping into a highly leveraged investment with falling prices, I know I would.

all_blue_chucks 8y ago

My house in Seattle has been appreciating by about $100k/year over the past five years. In other words, I'm making $100k/year on a $50k investment. You wont find returns like that in a 401k. And my interest payments are less than rent would be. Last but not least, home appreciation is TAX FREE up to half a million bucks. By all means, max out the $20k or so you are allowed to put into a 401k, but don't fool yourself into thinking it will outperform what is essentially a government-subsidized leveraged investment. You have to have exceptionally bad timing or move very frequently to lose in real estate.

paulcole 8y ago
It’s also quite difficult to go back in time and buy a house in Seattle 5 years ago. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that buying into what would become a ridiculously hot market is much more than dumb luck.
- tjr225 8y ago
  I rent in a neighborhood in Seattle that has homes that sell from anywhere between 700k to tens of millions, and a lot of houses that I'm looking at aren't selling. The market is so saturated with people trying to sell their homes for more than they are worth, which is a notable change in what is an extremely hot housing market.
lottin 8y ago
You're talking about unrealised profits. In order for the profits to be realised you need to sell the house. So what happens then? Either you keep the profits and are left without a house, or you buy another house and are left without a profit. Because, you see, it's not only your particular house that has appreciated, all houses have.
- techsupporter 8y ago
  Yep. I own where I live in Seattle and some of my younger-than-me friends and colleagues are routinely "you're so lucky, you're sitting on a gold mine!" Maybe so, but the sizzling hot housing market means I can't ever move to another place I own because, like you said, I'd have to take all of that appreciation and plow it right back into another property. Never mind that anything north of the ship canal is still completely unaffordable by my standards (that is, $450k or less, which is still a staggering sum of money in my world). I'd much rather do like the grandparent and have those gains as actual money in a 401k, not theoretical money in a house that I'd have to practically leave the time zone to realize.