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One of the most important lessons of economics is that “good intent” does not always mean “good results”. Do you have any reason to believe that higher taxes an

One of the most important lessons of economics is that “good intent” does not always mean “good results”. Do you have any reason to believe that higher taxes and spending will lead to better outcomes, or higher net societal welfare? Consider how U.S. education spending per student has ballooned over the last few decades, while outcomes have stayed flat (and in some cases deteriorated).

knuththetruth 8y ago
>Do you have any reason to believe that higher taxes and spending will lead to better outcomes, or higher net societal welfare? Not the parent, but how about all of Western Europe? As much as economics wants to tout itself as a science, when confronted with real world examples of what works, tested in real countries over the past 75 years, it just retreats into some dressed-up version of American Exceptionalism to explain the failing of its own prescriptions.
- throwaway37585 8y ago
  > Not the parent, but how about all of Western Europe? You're going to have to be more specific. What about "all of Western Europe"? > As much as economics wants to tout itself as a science Is this going to be a game of definitions? What qualifies as a "science", in your view? Do you consider sociology to be a science? Psychology? Ecology? Geology? Anthropology? Archaeology? History? Linguistics? > tested in real countries over the past 75 years Which 75-year-old policies are you referring to, exactly? > it just retreats into some dressed-up version of American Exceptionalism What you could possibly mean by economics being a "dressed-up version of American Exceptionalism" is honestly a complete mystery to me. > to explain the failing of its own prescriptions. Which prescriptions are you referring to?
  - knuththetruth 8y ago
    You said: “Do you have any reason to believe that higher taxes and spending will lead to better outcomes, or higher net societal welfare?” ...And the historical example of Western European social democracies like France, Germany, and the Scandinavian states prove this. >Which 75-year-old policies are you referring to, exactly? Nationalized healthcare, massive investments in public transportation and education, higher welfare floors and labor protections.
    - throwaway37585 8y ago
      Interesting that you mention that. Relative to the size of its wealth, the U.S. spends a disproportionate amount on health care. Even as a high income country, the U.S. spends more per person on health than comparable countries. Total health expenditures per capita, U.S. dollars, PPP adjusted, 2016 [1]: United States: $10,348 Switzerland: $7,919 Germany: $5,550 Netherlands: $5,385 Austria: $5,227 Belgium: $4,839 France: $4,600 United Kingdom: $4,192 See [2] for a breakdown by country of government/compulsory healthcare spending as a percentage of GDP: https://imgur.com/a/BzaVX6w https://imgur.com/a/BzaVX6w. The U.S. comes out on top, by far. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe the problems with U.S. healthcare won't be solved by pouring more money into it, but rather by addressing systemic issues with the way it works? Regarding education: The United States spends more than other developed nations on its students' education each year... Spending, of course, only tells part of the story and does not guarantee students' success. The United States routinely trails its rival countries in performances on international exams despite being among the heaviest spenders on education... The average first-year high school teacher in the United States earns about $38,000. OECD nations pay their comparable educators just more than $31,000... Among all educators, U.S. payrolls are competitive. The average high school teacher in the United States earns about $53,000, well above the average of $45,500 among all OECD nations. [3] The United States spent $12,300 per FTE student at the elementary/secondary level, which was 29 percent higher than the average of $9,600 for OECD member countries reporting data... At the postsecondary level, total government and private expenditures on education institutions as a percentage of GDP by the United States (2.7 percent) were higher than the OECD average (1.6 percent) and were higher than those of all other OECD countries reporting data. [4] Again, has it ever occurred to you that maybe the problems with U.S. education won't be solved by pouring more money into it, but rather by addressing systemic issues with the way it works? [1] https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-... [2] https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm [3] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-education-spending-tops-global-list-study-shows/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-education-spending-tops-glob... [4] https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp

knuththetruth 8y ago

>Do you have any reason to believe that higher taxes and spending will lead to better outcomes, or higher net societal welfare? Not the parent, but how about all of Western Europe? As much as economics wants to tout itself as a science, when confronted with real world examples of what works, tested in real countries over the past 75 years, it just retreats into some dressed-up version of American Exceptionalism to explain the failing of its own prescriptions.

throwaway37585 8y ago
> Not the parent, but how about all of Western Europe? You're going to have to be more specific. What about "all of Western Europe"? > As much as economics wants to tout itself as a science Is this going to be a game of definitions? What qualifies as a "science", in your view? Do you consider sociology to be a science? Psychology? Ecology? Geology? Anthropology? Archaeology? History? Linguistics? > tested in real countries over the past 75 years Which 75-year-old policies are you referring to, exactly? > it just retreats into some dressed-up version of American Exceptionalism What you could possibly mean by economics being a "dressed-up version of American Exceptionalism" is honestly a complete mystery to me. > to explain the failing of its own prescriptions. Which prescriptions are you referring to?
- knuththetruth 8y ago
  You said: “Do you have any reason to believe that higher taxes and spending will lead to better outcomes, or higher net societal welfare?” ...And the historical example of Western European social democracies like France, Germany, and the Scandinavian states prove this. >Which 75-year-old policies are you referring to, exactly? Nationalized healthcare, massive investments in public transportation and education, higher welfare floors and labor protections.
  - throwaway37585 8y ago
    Interesting that you mention that. Relative to the size of its wealth, the U.S. spends a disproportionate amount on health care. Even as a high income country, the U.S. spends more per person on health than comparable countries. Total health expenditures per capita, U.S. dollars, PPP adjusted, 2016 [1]: United States: $10,348 Switzerland: $7,919 Germany: $5,550 Netherlands: $5,385 Austria: $5,227 Belgium: $4,839 France: $4,600 United Kingdom: $4,192 See [2] for a breakdown by country of government/compulsory healthcare spending as a percentage of GDP: https://imgur.com/a/BzaVX6w https://imgur.com/a/BzaVX6w. The U.S. comes out on top, by far. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe the problems with U.S. healthcare won't be solved by pouring more money into it, but rather by addressing systemic issues with the way it works? Regarding education: The United States spends more than other developed nations on its students' education each year... Spending, of course, only tells part of the story and does not guarantee students' success. The United States routinely trails its rival countries in performances on international exams despite being among the heaviest spenders on education... The average first-year high school teacher in the United States earns about $38,000. OECD nations pay their comparable educators just more than $31,000... Among all educators, U.S. payrolls are competitive. The average high school teacher in the United States earns about $53,000, well above the average of $45,500 among all OECD nations. [3] The United States spent $12,300 per FTE student at the elementary/secondary level, which was 29 percent higher than the average of $9,600 for OECD member countries reporting data... At the postsecondary level, total government and private expenditures on education institutions as a percentage of GDP by the United States (2.7 percent) were higher than the OECD average (1.6 percent) and were higher than those of all other OECD countries reporting data. [4] Again, has it ever occurred to you that maybe the problems with U.S. education won't be solved by pouring more money into it, but rather by addressing systemic issues with the way it works? [1] https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-... [2] https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm [3] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-education-spending-tops-global-list-study-shows/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-education-spending-tops-glob... [4] https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp