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I had a Native American friend who asked me for help with digitizing cassette tapes of certain ceremonies. I transferred them, cleaned them up a bit, and burned

I had a Native American friend who asked me for help with digitizing cassette tapes of certain ceremonies. I transferred them, cleaned them up a bit, and burned audio cds for him. I then deleted all my own copies as he requested. He asked that since the ceremonies were for his people that I not keep them for myself, and I respected that.

neolefty 8y ago
Paraphrases of what I've heard from Native American friends: My gift to you is this song. I cannot sing that song because it was not given to me. Intellectual property is apparently an ancient social construct!
- civilitty 8y ago
  It's not about intellectual property, it's an "it's the thought that counts" type of thing that is hard to explain to outsiders. In several cultures, singing someone a song is a very personal act of gift giving in which the singer creates beautiful sound just for the listener(s) - it is as much an expression of the relationship between them as it is about music or poetry. That latter bit is often lost in developed countries that have established musical industries instead of a vast array of amateur bards. Just like it is considered inappropriate to give away something that was a gift to you in many cultures, in some it is considered bad form to appropriate someone's expression of emotion unless you were invited to by the singer.
  - beauzero 8y ago
    That makes diary's purchased at an estate sale or a photo album interesting. What is the law on that?
googaaplmsft 8y ago
I think amongst friends this is reasonable. It would be no different than say helping someone restore old family photos. However in the context of research, callous as this may be, native American cultures are almost all endangered or extint. Sharing what little records we have left is basically the only way any of those cultures get to continue.
GauntletWizard 8y ago
"As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century, free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny. The once-chained people whose leaders at last lose their grip on information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master." - Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY57ErBkFFE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY57ErBkFFE) What was contained in those cermonies that you were not to know? What offense would he do to his people by sharing their wisdom with you? What didn't they want you to know? The answer is "Probably nothing". But in that vast empty space, there's a few corners where someone is hiding something, and those corners are really terrible. Look at cults like Children of God [1] - These cults are still really common. I'm certain you would have reported if you'd heard anything dangerous on those tapes. I'm certain that your friends motive for keeping them private were not threatening and entirely pure. Societal standards - Like rituals and ceremonies - Aren't private, though, and should never be subject to secrecy. They should be held up and celebrated. And if they shouldn't be held up and celebrated, they should probably be left in the past, and remembered as mistakes. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_International#The_Family_of_Love_(1978%E2%80%931981) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_International#The_F...
- yongjik 8y ago
  Given the context, doesn't it feel a bit... tactless to talk about how Europeans in America used freedom of information to defeat other Europeans and succeeded in taking the continent for themselves?
- staplers 8y ago
  The nauseating amount of disrespect for personal space you display truly terrifies me.
- SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
  > Societal standards - Like rituals and ceremonies - Aren't private, though, and should never be subject to secrecy. I guess the term "secret society" is an oxymoron.
oh_sigh 8y ago
That's great, but digitization and CDs are for our people. Why is he coopting our culture but won't share a free, non-material copy of his own? For a non-snarky response: The difference between your scenario and the one from the article is that with yours, you were just performing a service for your friend, who presumably owned the recordings. In the article's case, the recordings are owned and created by UC Berkeley, which is a publicly funded learning institution.

neolefty 8y ago

Paraphrases of what I've heard from Native American friends: My gift to you is this song. I cannot sing that song because it was not given to me. Intellectual property is apparently an ancient social construct!

civilitty 8y ago
It's not about intellectual property, it's an "it's the thought that counts" type of thing that is hard to explain to outsiders. In several cultures, singing someone a song is a very personal act of gift giving in which the singer creates beautiful sound just for the listener(s) - it is as much an expression of the relationship between them as it is about music or poetry. That latter bit is often lost in developed countries that have established musical industries instead of a vast array of amateur bards. Just like it is considered inappropriate to give away something that was a gift to you in many cultures, in some it is considered bad form to appropriate someone's expression of emotion unless you were invited to by the singer.
- beauzero 8y ago
  That makes diary's purchased at an estate sale or a photo album interesting. What is the law on that?

googaaplmsft 8y ago

I think amongst friends this is reasonable. It would be no different than say helping someone restore old family photos. However in the context of research, callous as this may be, native American cultures are almost all endangered or extint. Sharing what little records we have left is basically the only way any of those cultures get to continue.

GauntletWizard 8y ago

"As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century, free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny. The once-chained people whose leaders at last lose their grip on information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master." - Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY57ErBkFFE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY57ErBkFFE) What was contained in those cermonies that you were not to know? What offense would he do to his people by sharing their wisdom with you? What didn't they want you to know? The answer is "Probably nothing". But in that vast empty space, there's a few corners where someone is hiding something, and those corners are really terrible. Look at cults like Children of God [1] - These cults are still really common. I'm certain you would have reported if you'd heard anything dangerous on those tapes. I'm certain that your friends motive for keeping them private were not threatening and entirely pure. Societal standards - Like rituals and ceremonies - Aren't private, though, and should never be subject to secrecy. They should be held up and celebrated. And if they shouldn't be held up and celebrated, they should probably be left in the past, and remembered as mistakes. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_International#The_Family_of_Love_(1978%E2%80%931981) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_International#The_F...

yongjik 8y ago
Given the context, doesn't it feel a bit... tactless to talk about how Europeans in America used freedom of information to defeat other Europeans and succeeded in taking the continent for themselves?
staplers 8y ago
The nauseating amount of disrespect for personal space you display truly terrifies me.
SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
> Societal standards - Like rituals and ceremonies - Aren't private, though, and should never be subject to secrecy. I guess the term "secret society" is an oxymoron.

oh_sigh 8y ago

That's great, but digitization and CDs are for our people. Why is he coopting our culture but won't share a free, non-material copy of his own? For a non-snarky response: The difference between your scenario and the one from the article is that with yours, you were just performing a service for your friend, who presumably owned the recordings. In the article's case, the recordings are owned and created by UC Berkeley, which is a publicly funded learning institution.