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>7. I saw that the only group of people able to preserve a minimum of humanity in conditions of starvation and abuse were the religious believers, the sectarian

>7. I saw that the only group of people able to preserve a minimum of humanity in conditions of starvation and abuse were the religious believers, the sectarians (almost all of them), and most priests. This, to me is the point of religion. We need religion when things are hard and unpredictable. In a world where most things are certain and predictable, religion has no value.

ekianjo 8y ago
> In a world where most things are certain and predictable, religion has no value. Not much is predictable in your life.
- heavenlyblue 8y ago
  The more white and privileged you are - the more predictable your life is.
  - zingmars 8y ago
    You could've just said 'rich' and do without the silly assumption that white people have it better than others because of their skin colour.
    - heavenlyblue 8y ago
      I know - thanks, it wasn't a serious statement. Look at someone speaking about cancer over there: the guy's clearly missing the point that if you're rich and you die from cancer - then you're probably still going to be better off than if you're poor and die from cancer.
  - ekianjo 8y ago
    what a ridiculous claim. How much certain are you about contracting or not contracting illnesses?
    - heavenlyblue 8y ago
      I am incredibly certain that a privileged person can afford to have a better treatment than a poor person. Which is literally what "hedging your risks" means.
  - konart 8y ago
    And then - BAM! You've (or someone from your relatives) got cancer. Or something. - True, man is mortal, but that is itself only half the evil. The trouble is that man is sometimes suddenly mortal, that's the tricky part! Basically, he can never say what will happen to him this evening. 'What an idiotic way of putting it...” thought Berlioz, and objected: - Certainly, that is an exaggeration. I know more or less exactly what will happen this evening. Of course, if a brick falls on my head on Bronnaya... - Bricks are out of the question, - the stranger broke him off sharply, - not a single brick will ever fall on anybody's head. Under no circumstances, I assure you, does this constitute a threat. You will die a different death. - And perhaps you know just which? - inquired Berlioz with the most natural irony, he had clearly been drawn into some kind of absurd conversation, - and can tell me? - Certainly, - responded the stranger. He measured Berlioz with his gaze, as if he were sewing him a suit, and mumbled through his teeth, something like: 'One, two... Mercury in the second house... the moon is down... six - misfortune... evening - seven...” - then he loudly and delightedly proclaimed: - You'll have your head cut off!” - The Master and Margarita. Mikhail Bulgakov.
    - heavenlyblue 8y ago
      If a rich person's got cancer - he'll be able to pay off his dying and live in acceptable conditions before he passes. While someone poor would probably end up being unable to pay for his painkillers and dying while praying to his relatives so that someone killed him not to endure his death. So no, rich people do have a better ability to hedge their risks.
      - konart 8y ago
        This has nothing to do with the initial statement though. Not to mention that the result is the same anyway. >live in acceptable conditions before he passes. And no, this is not as simple as you are trying to picture. Sometimes - yes, you can deal with it this way, in many other scenarios painkillers and other shit is not enough and the only way to stop the suffering is either forced coma or suicide.
  - spodek 8y ago
    > * The more white and privileged you are - the more predictable your life is.* That's a quantifiable claim, especially in response to an article about a gulag system that killed and tortured many white people, many of whom you may have called privileged before they were imprisoned. I would love to see your justification. Seeing a scatter plots with whiteness and privilege on the horizontal axis and predictability on the vertical would seem persuasive, though I'm not sure how you'd quantify the variables. Can you cite a source?
    - heavenlyblue 8y ago
      Gulag system tortured political dissidents, who could or could not have been rich or privileged. Those who were privileged in the Soviet Union have always had a better hand. Don't have a job? Here's a job for you. Your brother's got cancer? We'll find the best doctors for him. Can't find a TV set for your nice flat? Here's a guy you could call. Your idiot child has been speeding and killed someone walking down the street? Well, we may speak to those policemen so that his life would not be destroyed by such a small mistake. I understand why you picked on the phrase "white and privileged", but it has nothing to do with the substance of my statements.
- mlechha 8y ago
  Here are some basic things, the predictability of which most people in the developed world enjoy. 1. Clean water 2. Roof over the head and the sense of safety that comes with it. 3. Basic food. A sense of community and friendship is probably the only basic human necessity that is not certain in the developed world. Now imagine a world where none of this is can be taken for granted. You live under a constant threat from various sources (disease, wild animals, other humans out there to steal, loot from you etc) , there's not enough food, water and on top of that you're lonely. Religion is one driving force that helps people through these.
varjag 8y ago
Hard to tell. Some of the people who went through GULAG system were convinced atheists. Sergey Korolev, the father of Soviet space programme. Or Dmitry Likhachev. Lev Landau who was wrecked physically yet not in spirit. And certainly thousands of less notable people we never heard about.
- mlechha 8y ago
  It's not about being an atheist per se, but about believing. The others I'm sure strongly believed in something, which kept them going. Landau for example had physics to occupy him and keep him sane.
  - varjag 8y ago
    IMO that's not quite the same. Doing physics isn't "believing" in physics, but sure keeping yourself focused on something goes a long way. Likhatchev deathbed words to his crying wife were "don't get so upset, it's just the matter changing its state".

ekianjo 8y ago

> In a world where most things are certain and predictable, religion has no value. Not much is predictable in your life.

heavenlyblue 8y ago
The more white and privileged you are - the more predictable your life is.
- zingmars 8y ago
  You could've just said 'rich' and do without the silly assumption that white people have it better than others because of their skin colour.
  - heavenlyblue 8y ago
    I know - thanks, it wasn't a serious statement. Look at someone speaking about cancer over there: the guy's clearly missing the point that if you're rich and you die from cancer - then you're probably still going to be better off than if you're poor and die from cancer.
- ekianjo 8y ago
  what a ridiculous claim. How much certain are you about contracting or not contracting illnesses?
  - heavenlyblue 8y ago
    I am incredibly certain that a privileged person can afford to have a better treatment than a poor person. Which is literally what "hedging your risks" means.
- konart 8y ago
  And then - BAM! You've (or someone from your relatives) got cancer. Or something. - True, man is mortal, but that is itself only half the evil. The trouble is that man is sometimes suddenly mortal, that's the tricky part! Basically, he can never say what will happen to him this evening. 'What an idiotic way of putting it...” thought Berlioz, and objected: - Certainly, that is an exaggeration. I know more or less exactly what will happen this evening. Of course, if a brick falls on my head on Bronnaya... - Bricks are out of the question, - the stranger broke him off sharply, - not a single brick will ever fall on anybody's head. Under no circumstances, I assure you, does this constitute a threat. You will die a different death. - And perhaps you know just which? - inquired Berlioz with the most natural irony, he had clearly been drawn into some kind of absurd conversation, - and can tell me? - Certainly, - responded the stranger. He measured Berlioz with his gaze, as if he were sewing him a suit, and mumbled through his teeth, something like: 'One, two... Mercury in the second house... the moon is down... six - misfortune... evening - seven...” - then he loudly and delightedly proclaimed: - You'll have your head cut off!” - The Master and Margarita. Mikhail Bulgakov.
  - heavenlyblue 8y ago
    If a rich person's got cancer - he'll be able to pay off his dying and live in acceptable conditions before he passes. While someone poor would probably end up being unable to pay for his painkillers and dying while praying to his relatives so that someone killed him not to endure his death. So no, rich people do have a better ability to hedge their risks.
    - konart 8y ago
      This has nothing to do with the initial statement though. Not to mention that the result is the same anyway. >live in acceptable conditions before he passes. And no, this is not as simple as you are trying to picture. Sometimes - yes, you can deal with it this way, in many other scenarios painkillers and other shit is not enough and the only way to stop the suffering is either forced coma or suicide.
- spodek 8y ago
  > * The more white and privileged you are - the more predictable your life is.* That's a quantifiable claim, especially in response to an article about a gulag system that killed and tortured many white people, many of whom you may have called privileged before they were imprisoned. I would love to see your justification. Seeing a scatter plots with whiteness and privilege on the horizontal axis and predictability on the vertical would seem persuasive, though I'm not sure how you'd quantify the variables. Can you cite a source?
  - heavenlyblue 8y ago
    Gulag system tortured political dissidents, who could or could not have been rich or privileged. Those who were privileged in the Soviet Union have always had a better hand. Don't have a job? Here's a job for you. Your brother's got cancer? We'll find the best doctors for him. Can't find a TV set for your nice flat? Here's a guy you could call. Your idiot child has been speeding and killed someone walking down the street? Well, we may speak to those policemen so that his life would not be destroyed by such a small mistake. I understand why you picked on the phrase "white and privileged", but it has nothing to do with the substance of my statements.
mlechha 8y ago
Here are some basic things, the predictability of which most people in the developed world enjoy. 1. Clean water 2. Roof over the head and the sense of safety that comes with it. 3. Basic food. A sense of community and friendship is probably the only basic human necessity that is not certain in the developed world. Now imagine a world where none of this is can be taken for granted. You live under a constant threat from various sources (disease, wild animals, other humans out there to steal, loot from you etc) , there's not enough food, water and on top of that you're lonely. Religion is one driving force that helps people through these.

varjag 8y ago

Hard to tell. Some of the people who went through GULAG system were convinced atheists. Sergey Korolev, the father of Soviet space programme. Or Dmitry Likhachev. Lev Landau who was wrecked physically yet not in spirit. And certainly thousands of less notable people we never heard about.

mlechha 8y ago
It's not about being an atheist per se, but about believing. The others I'm sure strongly believed in something, which kept them going. Landau for example had physics to occupy him and keep him sane.
- varjag 8y ago
  IMO that's not quite the same. Doing physics isn't "believing" in physics, but sure keeping yourself focused on something goes a long way. Likhatchev deathbed words to his crying wife were "don't get so upset, it's just the matter changing its state".