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Following the Tolkien reference, migrants trying to cross the border are like Sauron’s army? Orcs? I’m not sure this world needs more ways of dehumanizing the d

by ar813 8y ago

Following the Tolkien reference, migrants trying to cross the border are like Sauron’s army? Orcs? I’m not sure this world needs more ways of dehumanizing the desperate people and refugees seeking better lives.

swarnie_ 8y ago
While no one should ever be dehumanized they should be reported accurately. Criminals (one who has broken the law) Illegal immigrate, Economic migrant. I'm not sure how this issue plays out in the US but in Europe most of the media refuse to acknowledge this fact when reporting stories like this.
bluthru 8y ago
Everyone is seeking better lives. That's not a justification to allow someone into your country. EDIT: If you're downvoting this, does this mean that there should be no regulation for who can enter a country?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- nubianwarrior 8y ago
  I am downvoting this because of the descendants of the illegal ANGLO immigrants who came to Texas in the early 19th century profit and cheer the criminalization of those doing the same thing.
  - bluthru 8y ago
    That's an entirely different discussion. War is war. You act as if no humans ever battled for the territory before the 19th century. Should Mexico let anyone in south of its border?
    - nubianwarrior 8y ago
      No it’s not. America was not at war with Mexico during 1812-1836. Tens of thousands of gringos came and illegally squatted on land as well as raped and killed numerous Tejano families for their land. You should brush up on your history.
    - empath75 8y ago
      It does. Show up at the border any time as an American citizen and they stamp your password and let you in.
  - nindalf 8y ago
    Nah fam, those people were _pioneers_, get it? They braved the harsh conditions and took what was there after expelling the native savages. /s
    - bluthru 8y ago
      Nah fam, those noble savages grew from the soil and never battled for territory, ever. /s
    - rukittenme 8y ago
      There's a distinction between "killing" and "being killed". Both should be avoided for different reasons.
  - rukittenme 8y ago
    Its almost as if that was a bad thing and we want to prevent that bad thing from happening again.
- mwfunk 8y ago
  Of course there should immigration regulations, but because that's the comment you chose to make at this moment in this context, people are probably assuming that you believe the talking points about there being some big huge problem with illegal immigration in America, that somehow necessitates things like building a giant border wall and enabling ICE, etc. That would be eminently downvote-worthy, but of course you didn't say any of that. It's sort of like someone making a "both sides" comment after Charlottesville, it's hard to make a comment like that without it sounding like a dog whistle for some really bad people.
  - bluthru 8y ago
    Illegal immigration is a big problem that directly affects citizens, unlike the foreign interventionism in the Middle East. Do you really think 12.5+ million illegal immigrants isn't a big deal? The system isn't adequate if that many can get in. https://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal-immigration/how-many-illegal-immigrants-are-in-us https://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal-immigration/how-many-il... >that somehow necessitates things like building a giant border wall Do you want to tear down the existing walls? San Diego's seems like a success: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxhhjfiSy2Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxhhjfiSy2Y Walls are relatively cheap, dumb tech. A wall is potentially an investment: https://cis.org/Can-Border-Wall-Pay-Itself https://cis.org/Can-Border-Wall-Pay-Itself >and enabling ICE, etc So you don't want illegal immigrants to be removed? I don't understand.
- sethrin 8y ago
  The United States of America had open immigration for the first 100 years or so. Not open citizenship, mind you, but open immigration. It wasn't until after the Civil War that SCOTUS forced the federal government to implement an immigration policy. Until then, this was the land of the free, and the home of the brave.
  - bluthru 8y ago
    Yes, before there were government-funded social programs and we were largely agrarian.
- cocacola1 8y ago
  They are certainly welcome to try and succeed.
nindalf 8y ago
Anduril aka "flame of the west" is Aragorn's sword. He uses it to fight orcs, but also to fight "Southrons" and "Easterlings", men under the influence of Sauron. (Make of that what you will) Notably, Aragorn is able to defeat the latter two groups using his sword at the Battle of Minas Tirith, thus repelling them from "The West". I suppose Luckey thinks of his system as a way to repel evil people like the Southrons?
- alehul 8y ago
  This is more likely Thiel's idea (Luckey's backer on both Anduril and Oculus) than it is Luckey's. Thiel's companies Palantir Technologies, Valar Ventures, Mithril Capital, Lembas LLC, Rivendell LLC, and Arda Capital are all named after Lord of the Rings.
  - nindalf 8y ago
    Yes, you're right.
  - notacoward 8y ago
    I was a huge fan of LotR as a kid. Then I started to notice Tolkien's attitudes about race, class, and sex seeping into it, and it lost a lot of its appeal. If Thiel's into it, that's the final nail in the coffin. This quote from John Rogers seems apropos. “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

by ar813 8y ago

swarnie_ 8y ago

While no one should ever be dehumanized they should be reported accurately. Criminals (one who has broken the law) Illegal immigrate, Economic migrant. I'm not sure how this issue plays out in the US but in Europe most of the media refuse to acknowledge this fact when reporting stories like this.

bluthru 8y ago

Everyone is seeking better lives. That's not a justification to allow someone into your country. EDIT: If you're downvoting this, does this mean that there should be no regulation for who can enter a country?

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
nubianwarrior 8y ago
I am downvoting this because of the descendants of the illegal ANGLO immigrants who came to Texas in the early 19th century profit and cheer the criminalization of those doing the same thing.
- bluthru 8y ago
  That's an entirely different discussion. War is war. You act as if no humans ever battled for the territory before the 19th century. Should Mexico let anyone in south of its border?
  - nubianwarrior 8y ago
    No it’s not. America was not at war with Mexico during 1812-1836. Tens of thousands of gringos came and illegally squatted on land as well as raped and killed numerous Tejano families for their land. You should brush up on your history.
  - empath75 8y ago
    It does. Show up at the border any time as an American citizen and they stamp your password and let you in.
- nindalf 8y ago
  Nah fam, those people were _pioneers_, get it? They braved the harsh conditions and took what was there after expelling the native savages. /s
  - bluthru 8y ago
    Nah fam, those noble savages grew from the soil and never battled for territory, ever. /s
  - rukittenme 8y ago
    There's a distinction between "killing" and "being killed". Both should be avoided for different reasons.
- rukittenme 8y ago
  Its almost as if that was a bad thing and we want to prevent that bad thing from happening again.
mwfunk 8y ago
Of course there should immigration regulations, but because that's the comment you chose to make at this moment in this context, people are probably assuming that you believe the talking points about there being some big huge problem with illegal immigration in America, that somehow necessitates things like building a giant border wall and enabling ICE, etc. That would be eminently downvote-worthy, but of course you didn't say any of that. It's sort of like someone making a "both sides" comment after Charlottesville, it's hard to make a comment like that without it sounding like a dog whistle for some really bad people.
- bluthru 8y ago
  Illegal immigration is a big problem that directly affects citizens, unlike the foreign interventionism in the Middle East. Do you really think 12.5+ million illegal immigrants isn't a big deal? The system isn't adequate if that many can get in. https://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal-immigration/how-many-illegal-immigrants-are-in-us https://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal-immigration/how-many-il... >that somehow necessitates things like building a giant border wall Do you want to tear down the existing walls? San Diego's seems like a success: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxhhjfiSy2Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxhhjfiSy2Y Walls are relatively cheap, dumb tech. A wall is potentially an investment: https://cis.org/Can-Border-Wall-Pay-Itself https://cis.org/Can-Border-Wall-Pay-Itself >and enabling ICE, etc So you don't want illegal immigrants to be removed? I don't understand.
sethrin 8y ago
The United States of America had open immigration for the first 100 years or so. Not open citizenship, mind you, but open immigration. It wasn't until after the Civil War that SCOTUS forced the federal government to implement an immigration policy. Until then, this was the land of the free, and the home of the brave.
- bluthru 8y ago
  Yes, before there were government-funded social programs and we were largely agrarian.
cocacola1 8y ago
They are certainly welcome to try and succeed.

nindalf 8y ago

Anduril aka "flame of the west" is Aragorn's sword. He uses it to fight orcs, but also to fight "Southrons" and "Easterlings", men under the influence of Sauron. (Make of that what you will) Notably, Aragorn is able to defeat the latter two groups using his sword at the Battle of Minas Tirith, thus repelling them from "The West". I suppose Luckey thinks of his system as a way to repel evil people like the Southrons?

alehul 8y ago
This is more likely Thiel's idea (Luckey's backer on both Anduril and Oculus) than it is Luckey's. Thiel's companies Palantir Technologies, Valar Ventures, Mithril Capital, Lembas LLC, Rivendell LLC, and Arda Capital are all named after Lord of the Rings.
- nindalf 8y ago
  Yes, you're right.
- notacoward 8y ago
  I was a huge fan of LotR as a kid. Then I started to notice Tolkien's attitudes about race, class, and sex seeping into it, and it lost a lot of its appeal. If Thiel's into it, that's the final nail in the coffin. This quote from John Rogers seems apropos. “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."