6 ms·

I think Elizabeth Holmes belongs in prison. However, I read her bio and she was a genius on par with Jobs.

by lowken10 8y ago

paulcole 8y ago
For breaking what law(s)?
- rpedela 8y ago
  Fraud? The kind of fraud that can get someone hurt or killed like the bogus diagnostic tests which could mean a patient ends up taking the wrong drug and/or dose which hurts them.
  - paulcole 8y ago
    Do you think Elon Musk should be in jail for the misleading content on this page: https://www.tesla.com/autopilot https://www.tesla.com/autopilot
    - paulsutter 8y ago
      Human drivers kill over 1 million people per year https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic...
    - rpedela 8y ago
      No because as far as I am aware Elon has not tried to actively hide the problems even if he sometimes paints a rosier picture than reality. That is very different from telling everyone, including regulators, that the diagnostic tests work great, safe, effective. And there are documents showing they knew it didn't work. Theranos is like Enron.
- gameswithgo 8y ago
  Fraud, theft.
luddaite 8y ago
Honest question: Is raw intelligence or wisdom more important for success in biotech? It seems to me that raw intelligence is useful when studying systems that are either designed rationally or can be understood easily from a mathematics perspective. On the flip side, I think experience is important when dealing with biology which is often messy and not easily understood because so much is still unknown and everything is the result of an accumulation of random variations.
- aaavl2821 8y ago
  Most biologists I know are very high in raw intelligence. However there's a distinction between biology as a science and biotech as an industry. The key insight that starts development of a new drug often comes from pure molecular biology, but after that, a different type of biology, as well as chemistry and pharmacology quickly become very important. The industrial drug development process is one of the most technically complex, risky and highly regulated processes in industry. You basically need PhD level experience in almost a dozen distinct technical domains to get a drug approved. Most biotech VCs prefer CEOs with decades of drug dev experience because they know where the pitfalls are and how to execute better That said, Ive heard a very experienced biotech VC / former big pharma drug developer describe the process of developing a drug as "hanging on by your fingernails", and the traditional dyed in the wool drug industry strategy has pretty much put the industry on a long term declining trend, so maybe experience isnt as powerful as the industry tells itself
geezerjay 8y ago
> However, I read her bio and she was a genius on par with Jobs. In short, why do you believe that Steve Jobs was remotely close to being a genius, and what made Elizabeth Holmes do to lead you to believe she also met you definition of a genius?
- ghostbrainalpha 8y ago
  https://www.wsj.com/video/reporting-on-theranos-and-elizabeth-holmes/22C3F84E-0985-4EEE-8B74-256CD6D489D7.html https://www.wsj.com/video/reporting-on-theranos-and-elizabet... At 4:00 in this video they talk about Holmes fake "deep voice". I think its pretty clearly her fraud tendencies run really really deep. I don't think you could trust anything you think makes her a genius. The only things we actually know about her is that she could get into Standford, where she dropped out. She could also raise money really well. I don't think she is by any means dumb. But there is absolutely no evidence of genius.
  - rhizome 8y ago
    Funny, lowering the pitch of your voice is a tropey power move that gets zero criticism when practiced by men.
    - ghostbrainalpha 8y ago
      Any "tropey power move" should be criticized. Didn't you just criticize it by the category? When I was raising capital I definitely heard VC's making fun of men who spoke in a false voice, practiced their handshake, or artificially held eye contact way too long. I'm fine if you want to say my criticism of Holmes is influenced by sexism. But to make the statement that men speaking in a stupid fake voice get zero criticism... is hyperbole to point ridiculousness.
      - jrs95 8y ago
        This knee jerk reaction is part of why she was able to get away with it for so long.
jackhack 8y ago
Genius isn't enough. In fact, it can be a detriment in the right (wrong?) environment resulting in stunted emotional and social development. The problem with geniuses is that they tend to think their aptitude is enough to grant them magical ability to be correct. It takes experience and humility to learn that it's not the same, but a life of being pampered and put on a pedestal limits the genius' opportunity to learn this life lesson. The self-serving genius is roughly equivalent to the pychopath. Once you begin to look for these antisocial behaviors among so-called geniuses you'll see a frightening pattern.
- WalterBright 8y ago
  People thinking they are smarter than they are, and that this entitles them to run other peoples' lives, is hardly limited to geniuses.
gameswithgo 8y ago
>I read her bio and she was a genius on par with Jobs. What were either of them geniuses at exactly? Psychology?
- xenihn 8y ago
  Sure. People with certain personality disorders are extremely good at reading others, and convincing them to do what they want. Two common (and apt) terms I see thrown about are "social chameleon" and "reality distortion field". You can also learn how to do it if you don't have one by studying those who do. Regardless of how someone ends up with the ability, I don't think it's unfair to refer to it as genius, even if it's specifically based on emotional intelligence. They're just on a completely different level in comparison to the general population when it comes to bending others to their will and getting their way.
  - philwelch 8y ago
    I've unfortunately been very close to people with cluster B personality disorders, and I think "savant" is a better term than "genius". In many cases, these people don't even realize how manipulative they are; it's just an unconscious reflex.

I think Elizabeth Holmes belongs in prison. However, I read her bio and she was a genius on par with Jobs.

paulcole 8y ago

For breaking what law(s)?

rpedela 8y ago
Fraud? The kind of fraud that can get someone hurt or killed like the bogus diagnostic tests which could mean a patient ends up taking the wrong drug and/or dose which hurts them.
- paulcole 8y ago
  Do you think Elon Musk should be in jail for the misleading content on this page: https://www.tesla.com/autopilot https://www.tesla.com/autopilot
  - paulsutter 8y ago
    Human drivers kill over 1 million people per year https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic...
  - rpedela 8y ago
    No because as far as I am aware Elon has not tried to actively hide the problems even if he sometimes paints a rosier picture than reality. That is very different from telling everyone, including regulators, that the diagnostic tests work great, safe, effective. And there are documents showing they knew it didn't work. Theranos is like Enron.
gameswithgo 8y ago
Fraud, theft.

luddaite 8y ago

Honest question: Is raw intelligence or wisdom more important for success in biotech? It seems to me that raw intelligence is useful when studying systems that are either designed rationally or can be understood easily from a mathematics perspective. On the flip side, I think experience is important when dealing with biology which is often messy and not easily understood because so much is still unknown and everything is the result of an accumulation of random variations.

aaavl2821 8y ago
Most biologists I know are very high in raw intelligence. However there's a distinction between biology as a science and biotech as an industry. The key insight that starts development of a new drug often comes from pure molecular biology, but after that, a different type of biology, as well as chemistry and pharmacology quickly become very important. The industrial drug development process is one of the most technically complex, risky and highly regulated processes in industry. You basically need PhD level experience in almost a dozen distinct technical domains to get a drug approved. Most biotech VCs prefer CEOs with decades of drug dev experience because they know where the pitfalls are and how to execute better That said, Ive heard a very experienced biotech VC / former big pharma drug developer describe the process of developing a drug as "hanging on by your fingernails", and the traditional dyed in the wool drug industry strategy has pretty much put the industry on a long term declining trend, so maybe experience isnt as powerful as the industry tells itself

geezerjay 8y ago

> However, I read her bio and she was a genius on par with Jobs. In short, why do you believe that Steve Jobs was remotely close to being a genius, and what made Elizabeth Holmes do to lead you to believe she also met you definition of a genius?

ghostbrainalpha 8y ago
https://www.wsj.com/video/reporting-on-theranos-and-elizabeth-holmes/22C3F84E-0985-4EEE-8B74-256CD6D489D7.html https://www.wsj.com/video/reporting-on-theranos-and-elizabet... At 4:00 in this video they talk about Holmes fake "deep voice". I think its pretty clearly her fraud tendencies run really really deep. I don't think you could trust anything you think makes her a genius. The only things we actually know about her is that she could get into Standford, where she dropped out. She could also raise money really well. I don't think she is by any means dumb. But there is absolutely no evidence of genius.
- rhizome 8y ago
  Funny, lowering the pitch of your voice is a tropey power move that gets zero criticism when practiced by men.
  - ghostbrainalpha 8y ago
    Any "tropey power move" should be criticized. Didn't you just criticize it by the category? When I was raising capital I definitely heard VC's making fun of men who spoke in a false voice, practiced their handshake, or artificially held eye contact way too long. I'm fine if you want to say my criticism of Holmes is influenced by sexism. But to make the statement that men speaking in a stupid fake voice get zero criticism... is hyperbole to point ridiculousness.
    - jrs95 8y ago
      This knee jerk reaction is part of why she was able to get away with it for so long.

jackhack 8y ago

Genius isn't enough. In fact, it can be a detriment in the right (wrong?) environment resulting in stunted emotional and social development. The problem with geniuses is that they tend to think their aptitude is enough to grant them magical ability to be correct. It takes experience and humility to learn that it's not the same, but a life of being pampered and put on a pedestal limits the genius' opportunity to learn this life lesson. The self-serving genius is roughly equivalent to the pychopath. Once you begin to look for these antisocial behaviors among so-called geniuses you'll see a frightening pattern.

WalterBright 8y ago
People thinking they are smarter than they are, and that this entitles them to run other peoples' lives, is hardly limited to geniuses.

gameswithgo 8y ago

>I read her bio and she was a genius on par with Jobs. What were either of them geniuses at exactly? Psychology?

xenihn 8y ago
Sure. People with certain personality disorders are extremely good at reading others, and convincing them to do what they want. Two common (and apt) terms I see thrown about are "social chameleon" and "reality distortion field". You can also learn how to do it if you don't have one by studying those who do. Regardless of how someone ends up with the ability, I don't think it's unfair to refer to it as genius, even if it's specifically based on emotional intelligence. They're just on a completely different level in comparison to the general population when it comes to bending others to their will and getting their way.
- philwelch 8y ago
  I've unfortunately been very close to people with cluster B personality disorders, and I think "savant" is a better term than "genius". In many cases, these people don't even realize how manipulative they are; it's just an unconscious reflex.