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Kudos to those who is ready to stand for their principles. If you are at G and thinking whether you should resign or not, remembers this - the market for AI ta

Kudos to those who is ready to stand for their principles. If you are at G and thinking whether you should resign or not, remembers this - the market for AI talent is super hot. You will immediately find lots of great and challenging AI work pushing humanity forward

rm_-rf_slash 8y ago
Corollary: plenty of skilled engineers with fewer moralistic constraints will jump at the chance to do interesting work for high pay. For a company as large and wealthy as Google, they can continue to raise offer salaries until they are adequately staffed. There is a school of thought that recommends “moral” people doing “immoral” work because if those people left then other “immoral” people will take those jobs and more readily implement “immoral” features. So the “moral” engineers have an incentive to stay and act as a front line against “immoral” actions, or at least have an insider’s position for whistleblowing. Military drones are here to stay, and whether or not the US builds them, other military powers certainly will. Ultimately, I don’t think this changes anything.
- stochastic_monk 8y ago
  It at least makes a statement. It may not prevent the work from being done, but at least these people have washed their hands of it.
- option2 8y ago
  It changes the answer you give to your kid's question: "Daddy/Mommy what do you do at work?"
  - Consultant32452 8y ago
    Do you think there is a moral difference between the person who carries a gun in the military and the person who designs it? It seems like whatever feelings, positive or negative, we have about military personnel should carry at least in part to weapons designers.
- ChuckMcM 8y ago
  These two comments, the parent and grandparent, capture the essential challenge of integrity in engineering. You can have integrity and choose not to work on things you feel are morally wrong, or your can choose to set aside your reservations and continue the work. It is not an easy place to be and it causes many people stress. I don't know if my experience is typical or not but I do know that several times in my career I have encountered or been put into a position where it was clear that 'success' was tied to doing something which I felt was also wrong. I have always chosen not to set aside my principles for that success. And still I know people who have made the immoral choice and reaped the rewards, and then they have used that success to step into places of higher influence or control. They would no doubt argue that they were in a much better place to do good now, because they chose to do something wrong once before. It is not surprising that this conflict is the underpinning of many dramatic stories.
- sp332 8y ago
  "If you don't do it, someone else will" does not go infinitely far. It's entirely possible that if enough people don't do it, no one will.
  - rm_-rf_slash 8y ago
    The military industrial complex is a huge employer, both in the state of California and the rest of the county. The likelihood of enough people saying no to a high paying job like this is effectively zero. And even if - wave a very large magic wand - every AI/ML engineer in the United States pledged to not work on military applications, the U.S, would just contract that same work out from the U.K., Canada, etc...
    - sp332 8y ago
      There is a limited amount of total work that can be done by those people. Every low-level employee who refuses to work on this decreases the overall capacity. Every manager who has to deal with recruiting new people and getting them up to speed reduces capacity. Every company with reduced ability to compete for bids reduces capacity. Pushing the work to foreign companies and getting more red tape involved reduces capacity. It's not zero.
- posix_me_less 8y ago
  > "So the “moral” engineers have an incentive to stay and act as a front line against “immoral” actions, or at least have an insider’s position for whistleblowing." This is true if the engineer is in such a position of power within the company that he can effectively influence things towards the ethical goal. Most of typical for-profit corporation engineers who care about that ethical goal have no such position. If they strongly disagree with what they contribute to, the best decision for them and the ethical goal is to quit.
- buckminster 8y ago
  But now the "immoral" people are no longer doing whatever immoral thing they were doing before going to Google. Fewer immoral things are being done. It is a win.
- musage 8y ago
  Joseph Weizenbaum pointed out the bankruptcy of this "logic" in an interview, it's like saying every year there's bound to be rapes happening in any given big city -- so why not just go out and rape someone? If your excuse is that someone else would do it, you are that other person. > So the “moral” engineers have an incentive to stay and act as a front line against “immoral” actions That may be their incentive, but in reality they also act as fig leaves. "Yeah, X is bad, but there are some good guys in there trying to do the right thing". It robs wider society of the determination with which it would defend itself otherwise. > Military drones are here to stay Bullshit. If the insanity isn't actively upheld it evaporates on its own. Left to their own devices, sociopaths self-destruct.
- musage 8y ago
  And you know, instead of falsely claiming that everybody has a price -- just name your own price, instead of projecting your own corruption onto everybody else. > These men were able to give the counsel they gave because they were operating at an enormous psychological distance from the people who would be maimed and killed by the weapons systems that would result from the ideas they communicated to their sponsors. The lesson, therefore, is that the scientist and technologist must, by acts of will and of the imagination, actively strive to reduce such psychological distances, to counter the forces that tend to remove him from the consequences of his actions. He must -- it is as simple as this -- think of what he is actually doing. He must learn to listen to his own inner voice. He must learn to say "No!" > Finally, it is the act itself that matters. When instrumental reason is the sole guide to action, the acts it justifies are robbed of their inherent meanings and thus exist in an ethical vacuum. I recently heard an officer of a great university publicly defend an important policy decision he had made, one that many of the university's students and faculty opposed on moral grounds, with the words: "We could have taken a moral stand, but what good would that have done?" But the moral good of a moral act inheres in the act itself. That is why an act can itself ennoble or corrupt the person who performs it. The victory of instrumental reason in our time has brought about the virtual disappearance of this insight and thus perforce the delegitimation of the very idea of nobility. -- "Computer Power and Human Reason: From Judgment To Calculation" (1976)
oh_sigh 8y ago
Hard to tell if those people were planning on leaving anyway, and just wanted to make a splash. How many people quit each week in a company with 90,000 employees? Only a small percent of engineers at google are AI experts. Sure, more people use it, but they probably just make a service call and get some magic results back.
- Clubber 8y ago
  Leaving and making a "splash," on a company as well known as reported on as Google has quite a bit of risk involved, I would think.
  - oh_sigh 8y ago
    Yup, being known to have left a company because it wasn't liberal enough for you isn't exactly going to get you blacklisted in SV.
thirduncle 8y ago
You will immediately find lots of great and challenging AI work pushing humanity forward. They'll find jobs quickly, that's for sure. But "work pushing humanity forward"? There's precious little of that in any skill sector - not at FAANG salary levels, anyways. The vast bulk of the work that the vast majority of us do is simply about pushing the investor's balance sheets forward - not "humanity".

rm_-rf_slash 8y ago

Corollary: plenty of skilled engineers with fewer moralistic constraints will jump at the chance to do interesting work for high pay. For a company as large and wealthy as Google, they can continue to raise offer salaries until they are adequately staffed. There is a school of thought that recommends “moral” people doing “immoral” work because if those people left then other “immoral” people will take those jobs and more readily implement “immoral” features. So the “moral” engineers have an incentive to stay and act as a front line against “immoral” actions, or at least have an insider’s position for whistleblowing. Military drones are here to stay, and whether or not the US builds them, other military powers certainly will. Ultimately, I don’t think this changes anything.

stochastic_monk 8y ago
It at least makes a statement. It may not prevent the work from being done, but at least these people have washed their hands of it.
option2 8y ago
It changes the answer you give to your kid's question: "Daddy/Mommy what do you do at work?"
- Consultant32452 8y ago
  Do you think there is a moral difference between the person who carries a gun in the military and the person who designs it? It seems like whatever feelings, positive or negative, we have about military personnel should carry at least in part to weapons designers.
ChuckMcM 8y ago
These two comments, the parent and grandparent, capture the essential challenge of integrity in engineering. You can have integrity and choose not to work on things you feel are morally wrong, or your can choose to set aside your reservations and continue the work. It is not an easy place to be and it causes many people stress. I don't know if my experience is typical or not but I do know that several times in my career I have encountered or been put into a position where it was clear that 'success' was tied to doing something which I felt was also wrong. I have always chosen not to set aside my principles for that success. And still I know people who have made the immoral choice and reaped the rewards, and then they have used that success to step into places of higher influence or control. They would no doubt argue that they were in a much better place to do good now, because they chose to do something wrong once before. It is not surprising that this conflict is the underpinning of many dramatic stories.
sp332 8y ago
"If you don't do it, someone else will" does not go infinitely far. It's entirely possible that if enough people don't do it, no one will.
- rm_-rf_slash 8y ago
  The military industrial complex is a huge employer, both in the state of California and the rest of the county. The likelihood of enough people saying no to a high paying job like this is effectively zero. And even if - wave a very large magic wand - every AI/ML engineer in the United States pledged to not work on military applications, the U.S, would just contract that same work out from the U.K., Canada, etc...
  - sp332 8y ago
    There is a limited amount of total work that can be done by those people. Every low-level employee who refuses to work on this decreases the overall capacity. Every manager who has to deal with recruiting new people and getting them up to speed reduces capacity. Every company with reduced ability to compete for bids reduces capacity. Pushing the work to foreign companies and getting more red tape involved reduces capacity. It's not zero.
posix_me_less 8y ago
> "So the “moral” engineers have an incentive to stay and act as a front line against “immoral” actions, or at least have an insider’s position for whistleblowing." This is true if the engineer is in such a position of power within the company that he can effectively influence things towards the ethical goal. Most of typical for-profit corporation engineers who care about that ethical goal have no such position. If they strongly disagree with what they contribute to, the best decision for them and the ethical goal is to quit.
buckminster 8y ago
But now the "immoral" people are no longer doing whatever immoral thing they were doing before going to Google. Fewer immoral things are being done. It is a win.
musage 8y ago
Joseph Weizenbaum pointed out the bankruptcy of this "logic" in an interview, it's like saying every year there's bound to be rapes happening in any given big city -- so why not just go out and rape someone? If your excuse is that someone else would do it, you are that other person. > So the “moral” engineers have an incentive to stay and act as a front line against “immoral” actions That may be their incentive, but in reality they also act as fig leaves. "Yeah, X is bad, but there are some good guys in there trying to do the right thing". It robs wider society of the determination with which it would defend itself otherwise. > Military drones are here to stay Bullshit. If the insanity isn't actively upheld it evaporates on its own. Left to their own devices, sociopaths self-destruct.
musage 8y ago
And you know, instead of falsely claiming that everybody has a price -- just name your own price, instead of projecting your own corruption onto everybody else. > These men were able to give the counsel they gave because they were operating at an enormous psychological distance from the people who would be maimed and killed by the weapons systems that would result from the ideas they communicated to their sponsors. The lesson, therefore, is that the scientist and technologist must, by acts of will and of the imagination, actively strive to reduce such psychological distances, to counter the forces that tend to remove him from the consequences of his actions. He must -- it is as simple as this -- think of what he is actually doing. He must learn to listen to his own inner voice. He must learn to say "No!" > Finally, it is the act itself that matters. When instrumental reason is the sole guide to action, the acts it justifies are robbed of their inherent meanings and thus exist in an ethical vacuum. I recently heard an officer of a great university publicly defend an important policy decision he had made, one that many of the university's students and faculty opposed on moral grounds, with the words: "We could have taken a moral stand, but what good would that have done?" But the moral good of a moral act inheres in the act itself. That is why an act can itself ennoble or corrupt the person who performs it. The victory of instrumental reason in our time has brought about the virtual disappearance of this insight and thus perforce the delegitimation of the very idea of nobility. -- "Computer Power and Human Reason: From Judgment To Calculation" (1976)

oh_sigh 8y ago

Hard to tell if those people were planning on leaving anyway, and just wanted to make a splash. How many people quit each week in a company with 90,000 employees? Only a small percent of engineers at google are AI experts. Sure, more people use it, but they probably just make a service call and get some magic results back.

Clubber 8y ago
Leaving and making a "splash," on a company as well known as reported on as Google has quite a bit of risk involved, I would think.
- oh_sigh 8y ago
  Yup, being known to have left a company because it wasn't liberal enough for you isn't exactly going to get you blacklisted in SV.

thirduncle 8y ago

You will immediately find lots of great and challenging AI work pushing humanity forward. They'll find jobs quickly, that's for sure. But "work pushing humanity forward"? There's precious little of that in any skill sector - not at FAANG salary levels, anyways. The vast bulk of the work that the vast majority of us do is simply about pushing the investor's balance sheets forward - not "humanity".