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"And the very best hackers tend to be idealistic. They're not desperate for a job. They can work wherever they want." I've heard PG repeat this but I think it'

by vesterr 18y ago

"And the very best hackers tend to be idealistic. They're not desperate for a job. They can work wherever they want." I've heard PG repeat this but I think it's fallacious. A lot of up-and-coming hackers can't pick and choose where to work except in the sense that any person can quit one job and apply for another one. They can't unilaterally get themselves into Google, for example. Established hackers also may have constraints, such as time and family commitments, that keep them working a stable job instead of a startup, or keep them where they are rather than uprooting to go work at e.g. Google for a lower standard of living (possibly less salary and almost certainly higher cost-of-living, if you work at the HQ) even if they'd prefer to work there. Or your company may fold and you may have trouble finding an awesome job right away and have to settle for a tolerable one instead. Considering that so many start-up founders live hand to mouth, they are quite likely to be "desperate for a job" at various points, or at least unable to work "wherever they want". They might also find that the startup they want to do is just not as profitable or likely to succeed as some other one, and end up working on the other one instead. Scratching your own itch does not necessarily coincide with "making something people want" on a commercial scale.

modoc 18y ago
I'd argue that "the very best hackers" can pick and choose. "Up-and-coming" != "the very best". Maybe they'll get to be the some of the very best with some experience (work or project) under their belt, and at that point, if it's great code/work, they can absolutely get a job (almost) anywhere. I'm not sure what the rest of your points have to do with the PG quote exactly. Yes there are many factors around what job works for you given your current situation. You still have options, they may just be options that don't make sense for you, or that carry more risk than you're personally happy to take on, etc...
- vesterr 18y ago
  You said: "Up-and-coming" != "the very best". I'm not talking about up-and-coming skill-wise, I'm referring to level of fame or notoriety. What it really boils down to is whether you have enough money to just work on what interests you vs. what pays the bills. "they can absolutely get a job (almost) anywhere." Not really. There are far more jobs that require skills you don't have than skills you do.
  - eb 18y ago
    You're taking the point about a hacker being able to get a job anywhere far too literally. He has his pick among the top software companies and startups but, no, he probably won't land a job designing rockets for NASA.
  - eb 18y ago
    Can you think of any examples where a particularly excellent hacker is stuck at a crappy job to pay the bills?
9oliYQjP 18y ago
I think PG's qualification of "very best" is important here. While he has restricted his assessment to programmers, that need not be the case. This is applicable to the very best in any profession. I don't consider myself to be in the category of very best hackers, but I am pretty good, and I have never worried about money. If you have a decent reputation there will always be somebody practically begging for you to take their money to do some work for them. While you're probably correct that no one person can just unilaterally walk into Google and give themselves a job, the very best hackers can get pretty close to that. I'm sure they're probably an email or a phone call away from getting an interview. If you haven't tried to find good programmers, it'll be difficult to grasp just how very difficult it is to find good programmers. I have interviewed programmers for a number of positions and, quite frankly, it is a bit disconcerting what I have seen. In the past 2 years I have interviewed about 20 programmers and only 1 blew me away. He was just brilliant. Roughly 4 were good. And the other 15 were kind of crappy. We were forced to hire more than 4...
- eb 18y ago
  Absolutely. I think the meaning of "hacker" is being diluted, I'm seeing people use it interchangeably with "programmer" on this site. When I think of great hackers, guys like Richard Stallman, Justin Frankel, or DHH come to mind. They're most certainly idealistic and only a couple of emails away from getting hired at Google.
  - vesterr 18y ago
    Google is large enough it can take on people with almost any expertise. But what if DHH wanted to get a job hacking the Linux kernel? Or Frankel wanted to get re-hired to AOL to work on the stuff they didn't like? And RMS doesn't even program anymore from what I understand. What you're looking at is freedom due to financial independence. If you're financially independent, you don't have to work someplace you don't want to. It does not, however, mean you get to work wherever you DO want to.
    - nostrademons 18y ago

by vesterr 18y ago

modoc 18y ago

I'd argue that "the very best hackers" can pick and choose. "Up-and-coming" != "the very best". Maybe they'll get to be the some of the very best with some experience (work or project) under their belt, and at that point, if it's great code/work, they can absolutely get a job (almost) anywhere. I'm not sure what the rest of your points have to do with the PG quote exactly. Yes there are many factors around what job works for you given your current situation. You still have options, they may just be options that don't make sense for you, or that carry more risk than you're personally happy to take on, etc...

vesterr 18y ago
You said: "Up-and-coming" != "the very best". I'm not talking about up-and-coming skill-wise, I'm referring to level of fame or notoriety. What it really boils down to is whether you have enough money to just work on what interests you vs. what pays the bills. "they can absolutely get a job (almost) anywhere." Not really. There are far more jobs that require skills you don't have than skills you do.
- eb 18y ago
  You're taking the point about a hacker being able to get a job anywhere far too literally. He has his pick among the top software companies and startups but, no, he probably won't land a job designing rockets for NASA.
- eb 18y ago
  Can you think of any examples where a particularly excellent hacker is stuck at a crappy job to pay the bills?

9oliYQjP 18y ago

I think PG's qualification of "very best" is important here. While he has restricted his assessment to programmers, that need not be the case. This is applicable to the very best in any profession. I don't consider myself to be in the category of very best hackers, but I am pretty good, and I have never worried about money. If you have a decent reputation there will always be somebody practically begging for you to take their money to do some work for them. While you're probably correct that no one person can just unilaterally walk into Google and give themselves a job, the very best hackers can get pretty close to that. I'm sure they're probably an email or a phone call away from getting an interview. If you haven't tried to find good programmers, it'll be difficult to grasp just how very difficult it is to find good programmers. I have interviewed programmers for a number of positions and, quite frankly, it is a bit disconcerting what I have seen. In the past 2 years I have interviewed about 20 programmers and only 1 blew me away. He was just brilliant. Roughly 4 were good. And the other 15 were kind of crappy. We were forced to hire more than 4...

eb 18y ago
Absolutely. I think the meaning of "hacker" is being diluted, I'm seeing people use it interchangeably with "programmer" on this site. When I think of great hackers, guys like Richard Stallman, Justin Frankel, or DHH come to mind. They're most certainly idealistic and only a couple of emails away from getting hired at Google.
- vesterr 18y ago
  Google is large enough it can take on people with almost any expertise. But what if DHH wanted to get a job hacking the Linux kernel? Or Frankel wanted to get re-hired to AOL to work on the stuff they didn't like? And RMS doesn't even program anymore from what I understand. What you're looking at is freedom due to financial independence. If you're financially independent, you don't have to work someplace you don't want to. It does not, however, mean you get to work wherever you DO want to.
  - nostrademons 18y ago