5 ms·

Having just moved to SF from Madison, I have to say that the engineering competence of teams there is disappointing in comparison to the Bay Area. Not only that

by seawlf 9y ago

Having just moved to SF from Madison, I have to say that the engineering competence of teams there is disappointing in comparison to the Bay Area. Not only that, but Madison companies really do not pay well at all. You can't expect to keep talent if you aren't paying for it.

yesimahuman 9y ago
So far it’s working out and we’re excited about growing here. Our data says we’re competitive on compensation and I’m proud of our retention. I’m very happy about the level of our engineering talent and this team is building a successful product used around the world right here in Madison. I’m sorry you didn’t have a great experience with your last team.
- electricEmu 9y ago
  I'm glad your happy with your company's engineering output. As an engineer, I would head for Chicago or Minneapolis. Madison doesn't have "the next job". When that time comes, I wouldn't want to uproot my family. I'm glad your rention is stellar. I would expect increased retention due to lack of alternatives. Most companies believe their compensation is competitive. A lot of them are wrong. The Midwest might be a place where companies can skirt those two things fairly easy.
  - yesimahuman 9y ago
    You certainly would be entitled to make that decision, and many do! The point of my original comment was that we have sufficient talent to build and scale tech companies here. It's certainly not going to attract every talented worker (like yourself), but not even the bay area has that going for it anymore. For entrepreneurs thinking of building in the Midwest, you absolutely can. Let's not let that point get lost in a discussion about personal values.
    - chaostheory 9y ago
      > not even the bay area has that going for it anymore. Are there definitive stats on this because I would disagree especially compared to the Midwest?
      - yesimahuman 9y ago
        My point was there are enough talented people who don't want to work in the bay area that other cities have enough to grow tech companies. This is kind of obvious.
        chaostheory 9y ago
        That’s always been the case. The issue is quality. Outside of the valley, top caliber developers tend to congregate in big hubs like NYC or LA; or interesting places like Portland / Seattle, Austin, or Denver. The Midwest tends to be for locals only due to a combination of less agressive investors (not to mention a lack of), bad climate, and lack of stuff to do compared to everywhere else Chicago would be an exception but crime would keep people away Can any of this change? Of course, but it’s really hard to change culture and climate takes time (ex even after all these years CA still had a gold rush mindset)
        Fins 9y ago
        Chicago didn't seem to have that great a real crime problem (as opposed to perception) when I lived there. There probably would not be much to do in Nebraska, but then I can't see Bay Area as being exactly an epicenter of culture either.
        chaostheory 9y ago
        Chicago is typically in the top 10 in the country in terms of crime according to the numbers / population > Bay Area as being exactly an epicenter of culture either It depends on what you want. The SF Bay Area is not NYC in terms of fashion or theater. If you want that, you go to NYC. If you want a good clubbing scene, it's either LA or NYC. However it has a bit of everything. If you like the city, there's SF and Oakland. There's also a lot of suburbs and quaint downtowns like Palo Alto if you like that. There's always something going on regardless of whether you're in the city or out. The food scene is good. Wine country is next door. Tahoe isn't too far, and there's a lot of places to hike nearby. There's also fishing and sailing on the Pacific, or canoing in the rivers. Yosemite is doable. Also the weather is almost always temperate year round, hovering around the 60s-70's. These are a few reasons as to why housing is so expensive here. I didn't even go over the professional reasons. Comparing the Bay Area to Nebraska is disingenuous. There's no equal in the MidWest, though Chicago would be the closest. The US MidWest is just a really hard sell to almost everyone except to the people who grew up there. There's just too many other alternatives in the US. (I used to be a consultant going here and there)
  - ryandrake 9y ago
    Is there any company out there who actually says “our compensation is NOT competitive?” That’s pretty much the lowest bar. When I hear “competitive salary” it means the company can’t think of a more positive word to describe it that is also truthful.
    - maccard 9y ago
      Maybe not but there are plenty of companies who don’t say their company is competitive.
    - yesimahuman 9y ago
      I'm really not sure what your point is. If you're losing candidates based on compensation being too low, then you're not competitive.
      - ryandrake 9y ago
        Everyone at least says their compensation is competitive—-it’s not a way for an employer to differentiate. As a candidate, when I see the word “competitive” that tells me it’s lower than “generous,” “excellent,” “top of market,” basically lower than any other description of compensation out there.
  - pnutjam 9y ago
    Yes, "Next job opportunity" is the biggest stumbling block in the midwest. It's workable, but more difficult when you become more specialized. I've always assumed this is the same everywhere, but I've never received a competitive raise outside of my first year with a company. If you come in and make some big adjustments that save money, you might (maybe) get a bump, but after that they take it for granted. I've only ever kept up with inflation (especially health care inflation), by changing employers, so "next job" is a huge consideration.
strictnein 9y ago
These seem like related complaints: low pay doesn't attract top talent. Most of the people looking for higher pay would likely go to Minneapolis or Chicago.
pascalxus 9y ago
when you factor in the cost of housing in the bay area, I'd be willing to bet anywhere outside the bay area will compensate you much better. This might not matter if you're a 20 year old deciding between renting a 8' room for 1500$ or 200$. But it most certainly will matter once your in your thirties with a family comparing buying the 3 million dollar crap whole in palo alto vs a nice decent house at 300K (in madison). I think the best way to go is spend 5 years working in the bay area, save as much as you can. And then get OUT while you still can before you set down roots and meet someone.

by seawlf 9y ago

yesimahuman 9y ago

So far it’s working out and we’re excited about growing here. Our data says we’re competitive on compensation and I’m proud of our retention. I’m very happy about the level of our engineering talent and this team is building a successful product used around the world right here in Madison. I’m sorry you didn’t have a great experience with your last team.

electricEmu 9y ago
I'm glad your happy with your company's engineering output. As an engineer, I would head for Chicago or Minneapolis. Madison doesn't have "the next job". When that time comes, I wouldn't want to uproot my family. I'm glad your rention is stellar. I would expect increased retention due to lack of alternatives. Most companies believe their compensation is competitive. A lot of them are wrong. The Midwest might be a place where companies can skirt those two things fairly easy.
- yesimahuman 9y ago
  You certainly would be entitled to make that decision, and many do! The point of my original comment was that we have sufficient talent to build and scale tech companies here. It's certainly not going to attract every talented worker (like yourself), but not even the bay area has that going for it anymore. For entrepreneurs thinking of building in the Midwest, you absolutely can. Let's not let that point get lost in a discussion about personal values.
  - chaostheory 9y ago
    > not even the bay area has that going for it anymore. Are there definitive stats on this because I would disagree especially compared to the Midwest?
    - yesimahuman 9y ago
      My point was there are enough talented people who don't want to work in the bay area that other cities have enough to grow tech companies. This is kind of obvious.
      - chaostheory 9y ago
        That’s always been the case. The issue is quality. Outside of the valley, top caliber developers tend to congregate in big hubs like NYC or LA; or interesting places like Portland / Seattle, Austin, or Denver. The Midwest tends to be for locals only due to a combination of less agressive investors (not to mention a lack of), bad climate, and lack of stuff to do compared to everywhere else Chicago would be an exception but crime would keep people away Can any of this change? Of course, but it’s really hard to change culture and climate takes time (ex even after all these years CA still had a gold rush mindset)
        Fins 9y ago
        Chicago didn't seem to have that great a real crime problem (as opposed to perception) when I lived there. There probably would not be much to do in Nebraska, but then I can't see Bay Area as being exactly an epicenter of culture either.
        chaostheory 9y ago
        Chicago is typically in the top 10 in the country in terms of crime according to the numbers / population > Bay Area as being exactly an epicenter of culture either It depends on what you want. The SF Bay Area is not NYC in terms of fashion or theater. If you want that, you go to NYC. If you want a good clubbing scene, it's either LA or NYC. However it has a bit of everything. If you like the city, there's SF and Oakland. There's also a lot of suburbs and quaint downtowns like Palo Alto if you like that. There's always something going on regardless of whether you're in the city or out. The food scene is good. Wine country is next door. Tahoe isn't too far, and there's a lot of places to hike nearby. There's also fishing and sailing on the Pacific, or canoing in the rivers. Yosemite is doable. Also the weather is almost always temperate year round, hovering around the 60s-70's. These are a few reasons as to why housing is so expensive here. I didn't even go over the professional reasons. Comparing the Bay Area to Nebraska is disingenuous. There's no equal in the MidWest, though Chicago would be the closest. The US MidWest is just a really hard sell to almost everyone except to the people who grew up there. There's just too many other alternatives in the US. (I used to be a consultant going here and there)
- ryandrake 9y ago
  Is there any company out there who actually says “our compensation is NOT competitive?” That’s pretty much the lowest bar. When I hear “competitive salary” it means the company can’t think of a more positive word to describe it that is also truthful.
  - maccard 9y ago
    Maybe not but there are plenty of companies who don’t say their company is competitive.
  - yesimahuman 9y ago
    I'm really not sure what your point is. If you're losing candidates based on compensation being too low, then you're not competitive.
    - ryandrake 9y ago
      Everyone at least says their compensation is competitive—-it’s not a way for an employer to differentiate. As a candidate, when I see the word “competitive” that tells me it’s lower than “generous,” “excellent,” “top of market,” basically lower than any other description of compensation out there.
- pnutjam 9y ago
  Yes, "Next job opportunity" is the biggest stumbling block in the midwest. It's workable, but more difficult when you become more specialized. I've always assumed this is the same everywhere, but I've never received a competitive raise outside of my first year with a company. If you come in and make some big adjustments that save money, you might (maybe) get a bump, but after that they take it for granted. I've only ever kept up with inflation (especially health care inflation), by changing employers, so "next job" is a huge consideration.

strictnein 9y ago

These seem like related complaints: low pay doesn't attract top talent. Most of the people looking for higher pay would likely go to Minneapolis or Chicago.

pascalxus 9y ago

when you factor in the cost of housing in the bay area, I'd be willing to bet anywhere outside the bay area will compensate you much better. This might not matter if you're a 20 year old deciding between renting a 8' room for 1500$ or 200$. But it most certainly will matter once your in your thirties with a family comparing buying the 3 million dollar crap whole in palo alto vs a nice decent house at 300K (in madison). I think the best way to go is spend 5 years working in the bay area, save as much as you can. And then get OUT while you still can before you set down roots and meet someone.