6 ms·

DB-19: Resurrecting an Obsolete Connector (2016)

118 points by _cbdev 9y ago

LeonM 9y ago
Needs a [2016] tag
- sctb 9y ago
  Updated, thanks!
johncalvinyoung 9y ago
Definitely has been on HN before. Cool read though, once again.
kencausey 9y ago
Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11839690 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11839690
Animats 9y ago
It's embarrassing that it's easier to get things made in China than in the US. I had some 5/16" paper tape manufactured for use in antique Teletype machines. I tried several US paper tape manufacturers. One quoted me $10 a roll, but made a good roll. One sent me a roll with rough edges that jammed in the machine. Most were uninterested, even for a large order. The US companies were really hard to communicate with, too. Getting emails answered was tough. Phone calls usually went to voicemail. I finally had 1000 rolls made in Fujian, China for $1/roll. They worked fine. Much better customer communication, too. Some of the decline in US manufacturing comes from this sort of thing.
- rebootthesystem 9y ago
  I have been in physical product development and manufacturing for three decades. Doing business with US manufacturers has become more and more difficult over time. What you describe here is very true and only the tip of the iceberg. I have, for example, sent out 50 requests for quotes for machined components only to be utterly ignored by most of the shops I contacted. The same exercise with China results in an almost overwhelming number of quotes received almost instantly. They are open for business. Have been for a while. I, frankly, have no clue what game we are playing.
  - munificent 9y ago
    > Doing business with US manufacturers has become more and more difficult over time. Any thoughts on why?
    - extrapickles 9y ago
      In my experience, it's a combo of issues. US manufactures were the first to automate, so many of them are with 1st/2nd generation gear that is designed for high throughput operation and not around setup time. These machines can take several hours to change what they make. Also, manufactures have become jaded with new customers as they are constantly asking for them to move mountains for overseas pricing. Manufactures typically have a big enough collection of frequent customers that they can use bad first customer support as a means to filter out people who will go overseas anyways after they hear the quote the manufacturer spent a fair amount of time on. If a customer is willing to pass the gauntlet of trying to contact you, they are much less likely to disappear after you give them a quote.
      - qume 9y ago
        I tried to get some waterjet cut parts about 5 years ago near Santa Barbara. The only shop I could find that could do it had no way to get the data into the 486 - yes you read right - other than hand replicating my file in his ancient CAD program. My experience overseas is more like fire off an email with an attachment and have perfect parts a few weeks later. I believe this is changing though. There are some awesome short run PCB assembly services in the states now for instance.
        extrapickles 9y ago
        Now that the old equipment is at the end of its useful mechanical life people are switching. In the manufacturing I’m involved with recently got rid of their last machine that used 8080 era processors and character only green CRTs.
- pkaye 9y ago
  All the large orders would go the China anyway and nobody can "keep the lights on" with just a small order flow like yours. I remember around 2000 when SV was still full of machine shops that would do prototype and volume manufacturing of parts. Slowly they got moved to Texas and then overseas. Initially the volume manufacturing got moved elsewhere but these shops can't subsist on just prototype volumes alone. Then in a later job, same thing happened to PCBs.
  - Chaebixi 9y ago
    I may be totally wrong, but isn't there some pressure in the other direction because of the prototype turnaround times with overseas manufacturing? I've read articles about people claiming they were able to iterate much faster using domestic prototyping.
    - pkaye 9y ago
      Maybe for 1-3 days turnaround local is better but it you can wait a week, the overseas prototyping can save you a lot of money. You have to deal with the communications gap but you can hire people locally to bridge that gap.
      - Animats 9y ago
        The communications gap is worse with US companies. - "You have to speak with the sales rep for your area for that, and he's out until next week". - "We don't make that any more." "Then why is it on your web site?" - "The order form on your web site doesn't work". - "Live chat is not available at this time". - "Your call is very important to us. Please leave a message." Companies in China seem to rely on email, and they answer emails. (I wonder if perhaps spam is less of a problem in China, because the government is very hostile to mass communications from anonymous parties.)
        pkaye 9y ago
        I guess everything has become emails and messages now but back when I dealt with local manufacturers (ie machine shops, PCB, etc,) I would just drop by their office and talk with their engineers, brainstorm on the white board, etc. And if your employer was big enough, they would come to your office.
- Johnny555 9y ago
  Some of the decline in US manufacturing comes from this sort of thing Are you sure it's not the other way around? That the decline in US manufacturing leads to this sort of thing?
- Scoundreller 9y ago
  Same thing with spare parts. Need a funky USB to USB cable at a precise length? Someone from China on Ebay will have it. The "free" shipping time can take 3-12 weeks to Canada. So I always buy extra and re-sell them on Ebay to recover my costs. I have 4 micro-businesses for beer money of spare parts people are willing to spend an extra $5-10 to get in ~1 week.
Yetanfou 9y ago
Yes, this has been here before. Back then I replied that, when confronted with the same problem, I simply took a hacksaw to a DB-25 and had a working connector within a minute. Not as fancy, maybe, but just as functional...
- saul_goodman 9y ago
  Sure, that works for a one-off. Not exactly a good solution though when you are selling a new product. "So, plug the cable into the rough hack-sawed connector on the back of our jankey product".
  - piannucci 9y ago
    I wonder if it'd come out nice if you water-jet them in bulk and then glue the halves together.
csixty4 9y ago
There's a similar issue going on with the square DIN plug used for power connectors on the Commodore 128 and TED series (C16, Plus/4) computers. Someone found a place in China with old stock and has been buying them. One person is building new power supplies and machining their own connectors.
krallja 9y ago
So what’s the follow up? Is OP still happy with their parts? Are they available for purchase at 1/10th the price on AliExpress now? Did they recoup their investment?
- jws 9y ago
  I don't find any DB-19 connectors on Aliexpress or Alibaba. eBay has them for either ~$20 or ~$5.
  - kup0 9y ago
    The author recommends buying them from here in the article (that being said, the article is from 2016) so YMMV: http://www.iec-usa.com/cgi-bin/iec/DB19MS http://www.iec-usa.com/cgi-bin/iec/DB19MS
lisper 9y ago
Heh, I've had a similar project on my back burner for a long time having to do with reusable Keurig filters. There are a ton of them on the market, and they all have the same fundamental design flaw: they are just a filter, without the surrounding housing with a small hole designed to hold pressure. So they all make weak coffee (and a huge mess). I would happily sink some money into the design and manufacture of a filter that actually worked. I think it could even be a money-maker, though I'm mainly interested in it for my own personal use. But I have no clue where to even begin looking for someone who could make such a thing. If anyone here has a clue I'd appreciate hearing about it.
- kaennar 9y ago
  This might be an idiot answer, but have you checked your local makerspace? Or contacted someone at a university? Last year a few of my classmates did an "Aggie Challenge" where they designed something for a private party in exchange for some mentorship and a resume bullet. We usually do small projects for professors/companies that need help with something simple (like a CAD model/Design).
  - lisper 9y ago
    No, I haven't. I doubt reusable coffee filters are "cool" enough to attract that kind of attention. I need to somehow reach the people who are already making them, and they are almost certainly in China somewhere.
Scoundreller 9y ago
> For the moment at least, I have nearly the entire world’s supply of DB-19 connectors, stacked in my living room. I think I’m going to fill the bathtub and swim in them. And 2 years later, all the stock on Ebay is still from North America/Europe. I'm a bit surprised.

118 points by _cbdev 9y ago

LeonM 9y ago

Needs a [2016] tag

sctb 9y ago
Updated, thanks!

johncalvinyoung 9y ago

Definitely has been on HN before. Cool read though, once again.

kencausey 9y ago

Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11839690 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11839690

Animats 9y ago

It's embarrassing that it's easier to get things made in China than in the US. I had some 5/16" paper tape manufactured for use in antique Teletype machines. I tried several US paper tape manufacturers. One quoted me $10 a roll, but made a good roll. One sent me a roll with rough edges that jammed in the machine. Most were uninterested, even for a large order. The US companies were really hard to communicate with, too. Getting emails answered was tough. Phone calls usually went to voicemail. I finally had 1000 rolls made in Fujian, China for $1/roll. They worked fine. Much better customer communication, too. Some of the decline in US manufacturing comes from this sort of thing.

rebootthesystem 9y ago
I have been in physical product development and manufacturing for three decades. Doing business with US manufacturers has become more and more difficult over time. What you describe here is very true and only the tip of the iceberg. I have, for example, sent out 50 requests for quotes for machined components only to be utterly ignored by most of the shops I contacted. The same exercise with China results in an almost overwhelming number of quotes received almost instantly. They are open for business. Have been for a while. I, frankly, have no clue what game we are playing.
- munificent 9y ago
  > Doing business with US manufacturers has become more and more difficult over time. Any thoughts on why?
  - extrapickles 9y ago
    In my experience, it's a combo of issues. US manufactures were the first to automate, so many of them are with 1st/2nd generation gear that is designed for high throughput operation and not around setup time. These machines can take several hours to change what they make. Also, manufactures have become jaded with new customers as they are constantly asking for them to move mountains for overseas pricing. Manufactures typically have a big enough collection of frequent customers that they can use bad first customer support as a means to filter out people who will go overseas anyways after they hear the quote the manufacturer spent a fair amount of time on. If a customer is willing to pass the gauntlet of trying to contact you, they are much less likely to disappear after you give them a quote.
    - qume 9y ago
      I tried to get some waterjet cut parts about 5 years ago near Santa Barbara. The only shop I could find that could do it had no way to get the data into the 486 - yes you read right - other than hand replicating my file in his ancient CAD program. My experience overseas is more like fire off an email with an attachment and have perfect parts a few weeks later. I believe this is changing though. There are some awesome short run PCB assembly services in the states now for instance.
      - extrapickles 9y ago
        Now that the old equipment is at the end of its useful mechanical life people are switching. In the manufacturing I’m involved with recently got rid of their last machine that used 8080 era processors and character only green CRTs.
pkaye 9y ago
All the large orders would go the China anyway and nobody can "keep the lights on" with just a small order flow like yours. I remember around 2000 when SV was still full of machine shops that would do prototype and volume manufacturing of parts. Slowly they got moved to Texas and then overseas. Initially the volume manufacturing got moved elsewhere but these shops can't subsist on just prototype volumes alone. Then in a later job, same thing happened to PCBs.
- Chaebixi 9y ago
  I may be totally wrong, but isn't there some pressure in the other direction because of the prototype turnaround times with overseas manufacturing? I've read articles about people claiming they were able to iterate much faster using domestic prototyping.
  - pkaye 9y ago
    Maybe for 1-3 days turnaround local is better but it you can wait a week, the overseas prototyping can save you a lot of money. You have to deal with the communications gap but you can hire people locally to bridge that gap.
    - Animats 9y ago
      The communications gap is worse with US companies. - "You have to speak with the sales rep for your area for that, and he's out until next week". - "We don't make that any more." "Then why is it on your web site?" - "The order form on your web site doesn't work". - "Live chat is not available at this time". - "Your call is very important to us. Please leave a message." Companies in China seem to rely on email, and they answer emails. (I wonder if perhaps spam is less of a problem in China, because the government is very hostile to mass communications from anonymous parties.)
      - pkaye 9y ago
        I guess everything has become emails and messages now but back when I dealt with local manufacturers (ie machine shops, PCB, etc,) I would just drop by their office and talk with their engineers, brainstorm on the white board, etc. And if your employer was big enough, they would come to your office.
Johnny555 9y ago
Some of the decline in US manufacturing comes from this sort of thing Are you sure it's not the other way around? That the decline in US manufacturing leads to this sort of thing?
Scoundreller 9y ago
Same thing with spare parts. Need a funky USB to USB cable at a precise length? Someone from China on Ebay will have it. The "free" shipping time can take 3-12 weeks to Canada. So I always buy extra and re-sell them on Ebay to recover my costs. I have 4 micro-businesses for beer money of spare parts people are willing to spend an extra $5-10 to get in ~1 week.

Yetanfou 9y ago

Yes, this has been here before. Back then I replied that, when confronted with the same problem, I simply took a hacksaw to a DB-25 and had a working connector within a minute. Not as fancy, maybe, but just as functional...

saul_goodman 9y ago
Sure, that works for a one-off. Not exactly a good solution though when you are selling a new product. "So, plug the cable into the rough hack-sawed connector on the back of our jankey product".
- piannucci 9y ago
  I wonder if it'd come out nice if you water-jet them in bulk and then glue the halves together.

csixty4 9y ago

There's a similar issue going on with the square DIN plug used for power connectors on the Commodore 128 and TED series (C16, Plus/4) computers. Someone found a place in China with old stock and has been buying them. One person is building new power supplies and machining their own connectors.

krallja 9y ago

So what’s the follow up? Is OP still happy with their parts? Are they available for purchase at 1/10th the price on AliExpress now? Did they recoup their investment?

jws 9y ago
I don't find any DB-19 connectors on Aliexpress or Alibaba. eBay has them for either ~$20 or ~$5.
- kup0 9y ago
  The author recommends buying them from here in the article (that being said, the article is from 2016) so YMMV: http://www.iec-usa.com/cgi-bin/iec/DB19MS http://www.iec-usa.com/cgi-bin/iec/DB19MS

lisper 9y ago

Heh, I've had a similar project on my back burner for a long time having to do with reusable Keurig filters. There are a ton of them on the market, and they all have the same fundamental design flaw: they are just a filter, without the surrounding housing with a small hole designed to hold pressure. So they all make weak coffee (and a huge mess). I would happily sink some money into the design and manufacture of a filter that actually worked. I think it could even be a money-maker, though I'm mainly interested in it for my own personal use. But I have no clue where to even begin looking for someone who could make such a thing. If anyone here has a clue I'd appreciate hearing about it.

kaennar 9y ago
This might be an idiot answer, but have you checked your local makerspace? Or contacted someone at a university? Last year a few of my classmates did an "Aggie Challenge" where they designed something for a private party in exchange for some mentorship and a resume bullet. We usually do small projects for professors/companies that need help with something simple (like a CAD model/Design).
- lisper 9y ago
  No, I haven't. I doubt reusable coffee filters are "cool" enough to attract that kind of attention. I need to somehow reach the people who are already making them, and they are almost certainly in China somewhere.

Scoundreller 9y ago

> For the moment at least, I have nearly the entire world’s supply of DB-19 connectors, stacked in my living room. I think I’m going to fill the bathtub and swim in them. And 2 years later, all the stock on Ebay is still from North America/Europe. I'm a bit surprised.