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And I'm still not seeing any claim of "forced famine". Did you forget to edit the page before copying it? All your quote says is that some people claim one sid

And I'm still not seeing any claim of "forced famine". Did you forget to edit the page before copying it? All your quote says is that some people claim one side was to blame and some people claim another side was to blame. More interesting is that you don't consider to be a "fringe source" the far-right bible The Black Book of Communism - a publication discredited and disowned even by its main authors - which in order to fabricate a high enough death count to paint the Nazis as not so bad after all and the Holocaust as nothing special, classifies as victims the likes of Nazi/SS military personnel and anti-Semitic Ukrainian nationalist militias who murdered thousands of Jews in countless pogroms.

Fins 9y ago
Oh, I am sorry. I did not realize that you are defending communists. I guess killing more people than Nazis is OK, as long as they were the wrong kind of people... And seriously, if the best criticism of The Black Book is that it compares Nazis and communists, I do not see what the problem is... other than that communists are quite a bit worse. Criticism of "Death camps did not exist in the Soviet Union" is laughable on its face.
- Tech-Noir 9y ago
  > I guess killing more people than Nazis is OK, as long as they were the wrong kind of people... Good luck finding sympathy, outside neo-Nazi circles, for actual Nazis and Ukrainian militias who mass murdered Jews. > if the best criticism of The Black Book is The best criticism is that it was discredited and disowned even by its own authors.
  - Fins 9y ago
    So I guess neither Russians, nor Ukrainians, nor Kazakhs, who probably have not even heard about Jews' existence, nor other millions of people slaughtered by communists count. Only Jews? That's not much different from making excuses for Nazis. Except, of course, that they had killed far fewer people. Exact numbers in the Black Book might be inaccurate -- unlike Germans, Soviets did not keep precise accouinting, but even the alleged discrediting by its authors boils down to quibbling over whether it was the exact 100 million (a suspicious number indeed), or 93 million, or maybe only 67 million. Other criticism is just pathetic bleatinbgs from fellow travellers who have as much credibility on crimes of communists as David Irving has on the Holocaust. As a little amusing fact, Roland Freisler was one of those people taking last grain away from Russian peasants. But then the revolving door betweem commies and nazis was wide open back then https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B2%D1%91%D1%80%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BA%D0%B0#%D0%98%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D1%84%D0%B0%D0%BA%D1%82%D1%8B https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%80...
    - Tech-Noir 9y ago
      > So I guess neither Russians, nor Ukrainians, nor Kazakhs, who probably have not even heard about Jews' existence, nor other millions of people slaughtered by communists count. Anti-Semitic Ukrainian mass murderers don't count, no. Nor do Ukrainians, Russians, Kazakhs or any other useful idiots (that the Nazis considered untermenschen) who signed up to help Germany carry out the Final Solution and Generalplan Ost (until it was their turn). Perhaps you should consider the possibility that if the vast majority of people, communist or not, disagree with your belief that Nazi Germany wasn't as bad as the USSR, then you might be wrong. As a former citizen of the USSR, as you seem to claim in another post, how much better do you seriously imagine your life would have been, assuming you even made it to conception, under Nazi rule? > Exact numbers in the Black Book might be inaccurate -- unlike Germans, Soviets did not keep precise accouinting, So because it's not possible to know the true number it's okay to just make one (or several) up and act like it's historical fact? > quibbling over whether it was the exact 100 million or 93 million, or maybe only 67 If a difference of 33 million doesn't matter, and is mere quibbling, what's the motivation for even bothering to come up with a number at all? Answer: to make the argument that the Nazis and the Holocaust weren't uniquely bad. What kind of person, do you think, would bother making the effort to do that?
      - Fins 9y ago
        Dear Lord! What does Kazakh famine of 1919 [0] has to do with Germans??!!Maybe you should not be the one talking about useful idiots. Really, Ukrainians (and Jews) killed by MGB troops operating under OUN-UPA flag have nothing to do with Germans either. And how about the famine that this thread is about? How many Russians could have possibly cooperated with Germans 20 years before the war even started? I guess, not being a former Soviet citizen you have no idea what it was. And how good Jews had it there. You could try asking Solomon Mikhoels [1]. Oh, wait, Stalin had him killed. Maybe check with some prominent Soviet Jewish doctors? Oh, they got wrapped up in the Doctor's Plot [2] and barely survived (some of them, anyway) because Stalin croaked before Jews, as was the plan, could have been loaded in railroad cars (for their own protection against the just wrath of the Soviet people, of course) and sent to camps in Siberia. Just because Soviets didn't use poison gas on Jews (and those Russian peasants who did get gassed in the Tambov rebellion [3] obviously did deserve it, after all some of them may not have liked Jews and would have cooperated with Germans, have they lived another 20 years!) does not, by any stretch of imagination mean that communists were an iota better than Nazis. They just slaughtered people (far more people than Nazis ever managed) by a different criteria. Your insistence on excusing mass murder because some of those murdered might have, at some point in the future, possibly, had they survived, killed someone else isn't much different from what Holocaust deniers do. Does show where antisemites come from, though. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakh_famine_of_1919%E2%80%931922 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakh_famine_of_1919%E2%80%93... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Mikhoels https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Mikhoels [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambov_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambov_Rebellion

Fins 9y ago

Oh, I am sorry. I did not realize that you are defending communists. I guess killing more people than Nazis is OK, as long as they were the wrong kind of people... And seriously, if the best criticism of The Black Book is that it compares Nazis and communists, I do not see what the problem is... other than that communists are quite a bit worse. Criticism of "Death camps did not exist in the Soviet Union" is laughable on its face.

Tech-Noir 9y ago
> I guess killing more people than Nazis is OK, as long as they were the wrong kind of people... Good luck finding sympathy, outside neo-Nazi circles, for actual Nazis and Ukrainian militias who mass murdered Jews. > if the best criticism of The Black Book is The best criticism is that it was discredited and disowned even by its own authors.
- Fins 9y ago
  So I guess neither Russians, nor Ukrainians, nor Kazakhs, who probably have not even heard about Jews' existence, nor other millions of people slaughtered by communists count. Only Jews? That's not much different from making excuses for Nazis. Except, of course, that they had killed far fewer people. Exact numbers in the Black Book might be inaccurate -- unlike Germans, Soviets did not keep precise accouinting, but even the alleged discrediting by its authors boils down to quibbling over whether it was the exact 100 million (a suspicious number indeed), or 93 million, or maybe only 67 million. Other criticism is just pathetic bleatinbgs from fellow travellers who have as much credibility on crimes of communists as David Irving has on the Holocaust. As a little amusing fact, Roland Freisler was one of those people taking last grain away from Russian peasants. But then the revolving door betweem commies and nazis was wide open back then https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B2%D1%91%D1%80%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BA%D0%B0#%D0%98%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D1%84%D0%B0%D0%BA%D1%82%D1%8B https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%80...
  - Tech-Noir 9y ago
    > So I guess neither Russians, nor Ukrainians, nor Kazakhs, who probably have not even heard about Jews' existence, nor other millions of people slaughtered by communists count. Anti-Semitic Ukrainian mass murderers don't count, no. Nor do Ukrainians, Russians, Kazakhs or any other useful idiots (that the Nazis considered untermenschen) who signed up to help Germany carry out the Final Solution and Generalplan Ost (until it was their turn). Perhaps you should consider the possibility that if the vast majority of people, communist or not, disagree with your belief that Nazi Germany wasn't as bad as the USSR, then you might be wrong. As a former citizen of the USSR, as you seem to claim in another post, how much better do you seriously imagine your life would have been, assuming you even made it to conception, under Nazi rule? > Exact numbers in the Black Book might be inaccurate -- unlike Germans, Soviets did not keep precise accouinting, So because it's not possible to know the true number it's okay to just make one (or several) up and act like it's historical fact? > quibbling over whether it was the exact 100 million or 93 million, or maybe only 67 If a difference of 33 million doesn't matter, and is mere quibbling, what's the motivation for even bothering to come up with a number at all? Answer: to make the argument that the Nazis and the Holocaust weren't uniquely bad. What kind of person, do you think, would bother making the effort to do that?
    - Fins 9y ago
      Dear Lord! What does Kazakh famine of 1919 [0] has to do with Germans??!!Maybe you should not be the one talking about useful idiots. Really, Ukrainians (and Jews) killed by MGB troops operating under OUN-UPA flag have nothing to do with Germans either. And how about the famine that this thread is about? How many Russians could have possibly cooperated with Germans 20 years before the war even started? I guess, not being a former Soviet citizen you have no idea what it was. And how good Jews had it there. You could try asking Solomon Mikhoels [1]. Oh, wait, Stalin had him killed. Maybe check with some prominent Soviet Jewish doctors? Oh, they got wrapped up in the Doctor's Plot [2] and barely survived (some of them, anyway) because Stalin croaked before Jews, as was the plan, could have been loaded in railroad cars (for their own protection against the just wrath of the Soviet people, of course) and sent to camps in Siberia. Just because Soviets didn't use poison gas on Jews (and those Russian peasants who did get gassed in the Tambov rebellion [3] obviously did deserve it, after all some of them may not have liked Jews and would have cooperated with Germans, have they lived another 20 years!) does not, by any stretch of imagination mean that communists were an iota better than Nazis. They just slaughtered people (far more people than Nazis ever managed) by a different criteria. Your insistence on excusing mass murder because some of those murdered might have, at some point in the future, possibly, had they survived, killed someone else isn't much different from what Holocaust deniers do. Does show where antisemites come from, though. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakh_famine_of_1919%E2%80%931922 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakh_famine_of_1919%E2%80%93... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Mikhoels https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Mikhoels [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambov_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambov_Rebellion