6 ms·

Fortunately these government agencies are mostly corrupt, dysfunctional, and unable to recruit talent, so we probably don't have much to worry about.

throwaway76025 9y ago
Any objective source for your claims? If your basis is the attitude for such agencies here on hacker news, it’s understandable why you might believe those to be true, but they aren’t.
- brndnmtthws 9y ago
  I've worked directly with people in the IC, and I have friends who've worked (or currently work) at various government agencies.
  - throwaway76025 9y ago
    Did they convey those summaries to you? If so, is it accurate to say that shtf post-Snowden, and hasn’t recovered? You could be right, so I take it back, but I’ve heard there is some degree of strife and paranoia, but not general chaos as may be perceived.
    - brndnmtthws 9y ago
      It's mostly anecdotes and personal experience. I think that data on salaries, etc, is mostly public too, so you can probably see for yourself that they aren't competitive with SV or Wall St.
      - throwaway76025 9y ago
        Discussed here recently, there’s a path from public to private sector that does serve the need to retain talent, to some degree. Also, to say they are mostly corrupt or incompetent seems possibly too much of a broad stroke that is based on anecdotes. I don’t believe Snowden, for instance, ever suggested either of those are true — did he? Finally, if this is your assessment, your standard may be unusually high. Maybe your peers, many not quite as good as you, are actually quite skilled? Just a hunch, could be wrong.
        brndnmtthws 9y ago
        Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Any person or organization which contributes, aids, or abets in spying on individuals for political reasons is entirely corrupt in my opinion. Aside from some research that the NSA has contributed to humanity, they have done little good based on the evidence I've seen.
        34b907j 9y ago
        Is spying on people for profit and then sharing that data with various governments in exchange for political favors a morally sound pursuit? I was about to add "pot, meet kettle", but this is more of a "pot, meet handle" situation.
  - panzagl 9y ago
    How does SF keep from drowning in all the special snowflakes there?
- acct1771 9y ago
  Thomas Drake, Edward Snowden, Wikileaks, etc
  - auntienomen 9y ago
    Snowden & Wikileads have revealed themselves as operations run by the NSA's rightful targets.
    - acct1771 9y ago
      Change your news sources. Fast.
- gaius 9y ago
  unable to recruit talent seems true at least https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16057449 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16057449
jsjohnst 9y ago
> so we probably don't have much to worry about. While you had me nodding my head until this point, I think your conclusion is ultimately wrong. We have lots to worry about because of those very reasons you list. When you can’t recruit good talent, you get at best partial incompetence, at worst bad actors. When things are dysfunctional, you don’t have proper checks and balances. When an organization is corrupt, very bad things tend to happen as nobody cares.
- brndnmtthws 9y ago
  I'm partly in agreement with you, but my point of view is that the 'good guys', so to speak, are working at Google, Apple, Facebook, etc, and are incentivized to protect their customers rather than assist the government (except, y'know, in cases where they got caught working with the gov). If most of the talented folks are working in the private sector, it seems logical to conclude that no corrupt organization can 'hack' the privacy protections that are in place. Or at the very least, they're a lot less capable of doing so. The pen is mightier than the sword, and corrupt political organizations will be left with nothing but a sword in the end. And that may eventually become useless, too.
  - throwaway76025 9y ago
    Your viewpoint is both provincial and biased, and, ironically, not wrong in ways that conflict with your moral assertions. SV has a disgusting mafia in place protecting itself and “friends”. And there’s reason to believe in widespread cooperation between major SV players and govt. All of that is most successful if people don’t find out about it. So much power has accumulated in SV in recent years that it is trivial to turn the absolute power/corruption speech back on itself. Did I tell you what people with high level SV connections and connections to Peter Thiel did/said to me? No? There’s other shit going on. Big groups of talent inevitably have bad actors.

throwaway76025 9y ago

Any objective source for your claims? If your basis is the attitude for such agencies here on hacker news, it’s understandable why you might believe those to be true, but they aren’t.

brndnmtthws 9y ago
I've worked directly with people in the IC, and I have friends who've worked (or currently work) at various government agencies.
- throwaway76025 9y ago
  Did they convey those summaries to you? If so, is it accurate to say that shtf post-Snowden, and hasn’t recovered? You could be right, so I take it back, but I’ve heard there is some degree of strife and paranoia, but not general chaos as may be perceived.
  - brndnmtthws 9y ago
    It's mostly anecdotes and personal experience. I think that data on salaries, etc, is mostly public too, so you can probably see for yourself that they aren't competitive with SV or Wall St.
    - throwaway76025 9y ago
      Discussed here recently, there’s a path from public to private sector that does serve the need to retain talent, to some degree. Also, to say they are mostly corrupt or incompetent seems possibly too much of a broad stroke that is based on anecdotes. I don’t believe Snowden, for instance, ever suggested either of those are true — did he? Finally, if this is your assessment, your standard may be unusually high. Maybe your peers, many not quite as good as you, are actually quite skilled? Just a hunch, could be wrong.
      - brndnmtthws 9y ago
        Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Any person or organization which contributes, aids, or abets in spying on individuals for political reasons is entirely corrupt in my opinion. Aside from some research that the NSA has contributed to humanity, they have done little good based on the evidence I've seen.
        34b907j 9y ago
        Is spying on people for profit and then sharing that data with various governments in exchange for political favors a morally sound pursuit? I was about to add "pot, meet kettle", but this is more of a "pot, meet handle" situation.
- panzagl 9y ago
  How does SF keep from drowning in all the special snowflakes there?
acct1771 9y ago
Thomas Drake, Edward Snowden, Wikileaks, etc
- auntienomen 9y ago
  Snowden & Wikileads have revealed themselves as operations run by the NSA's rightful targets.
  - acct1771 9y ago
    Change your news sources. Fast.
gaius 9y ago
unable to recruit talent seems true at least https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16057449 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16057449

jsjohnst 9y ago

> so we probably don't have much to worry about. While you had me nodding my head until this point, I think your conclusion is ultimately wrong. We have lots to worry about because of those very reasons you list. When you can’t recruit good talent, you get at best partial incompetence, at worst bad actors. When things are dysfunctional, you don’t have proper checks and balances. When an organization is corrupt, very bad things tend to happen as nobody cares.

brndnmtthws 9y ago
I'm partly in agreement with you, but my point of view is that the 'good guys', so to speak, are working at Google, Apple, Facebook, etc, and are incentivized to protect their customers rather than assist the government (except, y'know, in cases where they got caught working with the gov). If most of the talented folks are working in the private sector, it seems logical to conclude that no corrupt organization can 'hack' the privacy protections that are in place. Or at the very least, they're a lot less capable of doing so. The pen is mightier than the sword, and corrupt political organizations will be left with nothing but a sword in the end. And that may eventually become useless, too.
- throwaway76025 9y ago
  Your viewpoint is both provincial and biased, and, ironically, not wrong in ways that conflict with your moral assertions. SV has a disgusting mafia in place protecting itself and “friends”. And there’s reason to believe in widespread cooperation between major SV players and govt. All of that is most successful if people don’t find out about it. So much power has accumulated in SV in recent years that it is trivial to turn the absolute power/corruption speech back on itself. Did I tell you what people with high level SV connections and connections to Peter Thiel did/said to me? No? There’s other shit going on. Big groups of talent inevitably have bad actors.