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My question is the demand collapse, and transition to a demand spike. The current models of increased load, like demand reduction and management companies that

My question is the demand collapse, and transition to a demand spike. The current models of increased load, like demand reduction and management companies that do nothing more than broker kW for incentives for shut-down during high peak times - et al. https://energy.gov/eere/wipo/demand-reduction-0 https://energy.gov/eere/wipo/demand-reduction-0 // --> so, as we shift away from fossil fuels/oil .. who are the great tycoons of electrical grid creeping?

nordsieck 9y ago
Very little oil is used to power the grid. It's almost all used in transportation.
- rgbrenner 9y ago
  but the grid does use natural gas for peaker plants to respond to demand changes. Natural gas comes from oil wells. If demand for oil reduces, and wells close, natural gas production will decline too.
  - pm90 9y ago
    While Natural Gas was considered a byproduct in earlier times when it couldn't be harvested efficiently (and had to be "flared"), current technology does allow us to do so, and wells targeting gas specifically are not uncommon.
- switchbak 9y ago
  According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, you are correct in that very little fossil fuel is used in electrical energy production [1]. However, quite a lot of natural gas is used, which is what the GP was describing, so I think his question is still quite relevant. [1]: https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/images/charts/consumption-by-source-and-sector-large.jpg https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/images/charts/consumptio...
toomuchtodo 9y ago
You're already seeing utility scale battery storage displace the most expensive oil and natural gas peakers who operate less than hundreds of hours per year (Tesla has an additional order in Australia, and a new order in New Zealand after the press from the Hornsdale Power Reserve [1]). The winners will be renewables, battery storage owners who can arbitrage, and technology companies who can arbitrage using distributed resources in partnership with owners of those resources (ie Tesla and company). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Wind_Farm#Hornsdale_Power_Reserve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Wind_Farm#Hornsdale_...
- JohnStudio 9y ago
  Minus Elon Musk ... like who are the big players though?
  - EngineerBetter 9y ago
    Siemens. https://electrek.co/2018/01/11/aes-siemens-launch-fluence-energy-storage-startup-tesla-energy-world-biggest-battery-project/ https://electrek.co/2018/01/11/aes-siemens-launch-fluence-en...
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    Can you be more specific? There are "big players" in utility solar/wind generator installation, utilities themselves, battery storage manufacturers, etc. I'd like to be as helpful as I can be in explaining, but I need the question constrained. There is no cartel that "owns" a distributed generation and transmission future. Transmission systems operators are typically non-profits, utilities are heavily regulated, which leaves opportunities for generators (solar, wind, natural gas, batteries), residential consumers (rooftop solar), and industrial consumers (load shedding, batteries for reductions in demand charges, on-site colo generation).
    - xbmcuser 9y ago
      https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/jan/22/british-billionaire-eyes-electric-car-plan-for-former-holden-factory https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/jan/22/briti... How about this guy he is building a battery factory in australia and is trying to buy part of GM's car manufacturing plant that was shutdown.
pm90 9y ago
Its a good question. I think Tesla is on to something with home Solar re chargers though. If we transition to a model where every (or sufficiently many) homes rely on solar power to generate electricity, the increase in EV's wouldn't much change the demand of electricity from the grid. That seems like a great solution to prevent the grid from being the bottleneck for the growth of EV. (With self-driving cars I see an even better future: drive your car to the office, then indicate its not required for the next 8 hours. It searches for a nearby solar recharge station and drives itself, charges itself and returns by the time you need to leave. Seems like Sci-Fi right now but oh well... I can still dream )
- zhjansbnas 9y ago
  Using electric car batteries to smooth out load on the grid is a good idea, but there’s no need for the car to be physically proximate to electricity sources. We already have a much more efficient way of transporting power through space - the grid.
  - sigstoat 9y ago
    > Using electric car batteries to smooth out load on the grid is a good idea, but there’s no need for the car to be physically proximate to electricity sources transmission losses are non-zero. so there is at least _some_ value in having the power for the air conditioner 20 feet away.
    - matte_black 9y ago
      What about some sort of electrical power hawala transaction? I provide power in some far place with my car, and in exchange the power supplier gives an equivalent amount of power to my air conditioner for free for as long as I’m providing power.
      - pm90 9y ago
        Wow that is actually a really interesting idea! The problem with that approach would be trust: to trust that both parties hold their part of the bargain. There's likely to be a cryptographic solution to ensure that though, right?

nordsieck 9y ago

Very little oil is used to power the grid. It's almost all used in transportation.

rgbrenner 9y ago
but the grid does use natural gas for peaker plants to respond to demand changes. Natural gas comes from oil wells. If demand for oil reduces, and wells close, natural gas production will decline too.
- pm90 9y ago
  While Natural Gas was considered a byproduct in earlier times when it couldn't be harvested efficiently (and had to be "flared"), current technology does allow us to do so, and wells targeting gas specifically are not uncommon.
switchbak 9y ago
According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, you are correct in that very little fossil fuel is used in electrical energy production [1]. However, quite a lot of natural gas is used, which is what the GP was describing, so I think his question is still quite relevant. [1]: https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/images/charts/consumption-by-source-and-sector-large.jpg https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/images/charts/consumptio...

toomuchtodo 9y ago

You're already seeing utility scale battery storage displace the most expensive oil and natural gas peakers who operate less than hundreds of hours per year (Tesla has an additional order in Australia, and a new order in New Zealand after the press from the Hornsdale Power Reserve [1]). The winners will be renewables, battery storage owners who can arbitrage, and technology companies who can arbitrage using distributed resources in partnership with owners of those resources (ie Tesla and company). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Wind_Farm#Hornsdale_Power_Reserve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Wind_Farm#Hornsdale_...

JohnStudio 9y ago
Minus Elon Musk ... like who are the big players though?
- EngineerBetter 9y ago
  Siemens. https://electrek.co/2018/01/11/aes-siemens-launch-fluence-energy-storage-startup-tesla-energy-world-biggest-battery-project/ https://electrek.co/2018/01/11/aes-siemens-launch-fluence-en...
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  Can you be more specific? There are "big players" in utility solar/wind generator installation, utilities themselves, battery storage manufacturers, etc. I'd like to be as helpful as I can be in explaining, but I need the question constrained. There is no cartel that "owns" a distributed generation and transmission future. Transmission systems operators are typically non-profits, utilities are heavily regulated, which leaves opportunities for generators (solar, wind, natural gas, batteries), residential consumers (rooftop solar), and industrial consumers (load shedding, batteries for reductions in demand charges, on-site colo generation).
  - xbmcuser 9y ago
    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/jan/22/british-billionaire-eyes-electric-car-plan-for-former-holden-factory https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/jan/22/briti... How about this guy he is building a battery factory in australia and is trying to buy part of GM's car manufacturing plant that was shutdown.

pm90 9y ago

Its a good question. I think Tesla is on to something with home Solar re chargers though. If we transition to a model where every (or sufficiently many) homes rely on solar power to generate electricity, the increase in EV's wouldn't much change the demand of electricity from the grid. That seems like a great solution to prevent the grid from being the bottleneck for the growth of EV. (With self-driving cars I see an even better future: drive your car to the office, then indicate its not required for the next 8 hours. It searches for a nearby solar recharge station and drives itself, charges itself and returns by the time you need to leave. Seems like Sci-Fi right now but oh well... I can still dream )

zhjansbnas 9y ago
Using electric car batteries to smooth out load on the grid is a good idea, but there’s no need for the car to be physically proximate to electricity sources. We already have a much more efficient way of transporting power through space - the grid.
- sigstoat 9y ago
  > Using electric car batteries to smooth out load on the grid is a good idea, but there’s no need for the car to be physically proximate to electricity sources transmission losses are non-zero. so there is at least _some_ value in having the power for the air conditioner 20 feet away.
  - matte_black 9y ago
    What about some sort of electrical power hawala transaction? I provide power in some far place with my car, and in exchange the power supplier gives an equivalent amount of power to my air conditioner for free for as long as I’m providing power.
    - pm90 9y ago
      Wow that is actually a really interesting idea! The problem with that approach would be trust: to trust that both parties hold their part of the bargain. There's likely to be a cryptographic solution to ensure that though, right?