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Would you say the same about swastika/nazi flag? My family was a victim of a communist regime, it's incredibly stupid to use those symbols. You can never compar

Would you say the same about swastika/nazi flag? My family was a victim of a communist regime, it's incredibly stupid to use those symbols. You can never compare that to Catalonia and Spain, this comparison is absurd.

pron 9y ago
Spain has caused far more death and harm than communism, and yet no one sees that flag as dehumanizing, because death and harm are not currently the values that flag represent. Similarly, while communism has caused death and harm, they were never the cause of that movement or the values its symbols represent. They are, however, exactly what Nazi flags represent.
- cisanti 9y ago
  You are just cherry picking, leave your communist symbols home.
  - pron 9y ago
    No, I don't think I'm cherry-picking when it comes to what communist and Nazi symbols represent. Any comparison between the two is simply unaware of their respective roles. True, both have been adopted by oppressive, murderous regimes, but communist symbols have mainly represented -- to this day -- the idea of worker solidarity, and have been used by hundreds of democratic parties throughout the world. This is not true for Nazi symbols.
- tomhoward 9y ago
  This is a horrible discussion to witness on HackerNews. Every extreme ideology dehumanises those who do not conform to the ideology. Countless people were dehumanised in Stalinist Russia or Pol Pot's Cambodia, because that was seen as necessary for the ideology to be implemented. To claim it was not the primary motive is to make a distinction that has no difference in outcome. Debates over whether totalitarian ideologies of the left are nicer than totalitarian ideologies of the right have no place here. Please give it a rest.
  - pron 9y ago
    The debate is not over totalitarian regimes but over symbols, flags and emblems. If you don't understand the difference between what the communist flag and the Nazi flag represent, you may find it hard to understand why Nazi symbols are banned or restricted in various countries [1], while communist/socialist flags are waved with pride to this day, not only in many Western democracies but even in Russia [2]. In my country (Israel, where over 10% of the population is comprised of people who fled Soviet oppression), communism/socialism has been practiced (although not on a national level) for over 100 years in a democratic way, and on May 1st, kids in leftist youth movements carry red flags and sing the Internationale. Communist symbols (like, say, the Spanish flag), despite having been adopted by some of the most horrific and oppressive regimes, do not represent oppression or dehumanization, and they have also served as the flags of peaceful, democratic parties and organizations. The same is true for capitalist symbols, which, despite genocidal regimes (e.g. Belgium) are not recognized as hate symbols. Nazi symbols, however, are qualitatively different. BTW, to the best of my knowledge, even the professor in question is not posting pictures of Stalin or the Khmer Rouge flag. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E2%80%93World_War_II_legality_of_Nazi_flags https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E2%80%93World_War_II_lega... [2]: Here you can find a map of countries with at least one political party that's a member of the Socialist International, where communist/socialist symbols/emblems/flags are celebrated https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_International https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_International
    - tomhoward 9y ago
      Of course I'm aware of the purportedly benign displays of symbolism by social democratic organisations, and I don't have strong objections to those. But I'm also well aware of the violent instincts of some people on the far left (including people I know personally), who invoke the supposedly well-intentioned philosophies and symbols of communism to legitimise dark fantasies about violent attacks on others based on their race or class. I don't know much about the professor under discussion here, but from what I can see he doesn't seem to be doing much to distance himself from such conduct, and shows some signs of revelling in it. As someone who was raised on strong social democratic values, I now often find myself shocked at how much identity-based bigotry and rhetorical violence is tolerated or endorsed by people who claim to be of the left and who claim to stand against bigotry and violence. But most importantly, I really can't tell you how much I hate to be having this discussion on HackerNews. It is simply not what this site is for, and as a prominent member of this community, I really wish you would think better than to engage in this kind of campaigning here. It does nothing but make this place less pleasant and less interesting. That's all from me.

pron 9y ago

Spain has caused far more death and harm than communism, and yet no one sees that flag as dehumanizing, because death and harm are not currently the values that flag represent. Similarly, while communism has caused death and harm, they were never the cause of that movement or the values its symbols represent. They are, however, exactly what Nazi flags represent.

cisanti 9y ago
You are just cherry picking, leave your communist symbols home.
- pron 9y ago
  No, I don't think I'm cherry-picking when it comes to what communist and Nazi symbols represent. Any comparison between the two is simply unaware of their respective roles. True, both have been adopted by oppressive, murderous regimes, but communist symbols have mainly represented -- to this day -- the idea of worker solidarity, and have been used by hundreds of democratic parties throughout the world. This is not true for Nazi symbols.
tomhoward 9y ago
This is a horrible discussion to witness on HackerNews. Every extreme ideology dehumanises those who do not conform to the ideology. Countless people were dehumanised in Stalinist Russia or Pol Pot's Cambodia, because that was seen as necessary for the ideology to be implemented. To claim it was not the primary motive is to make a distinction that has no difference in outcome. Debates over whether totalitarian ideologies of the left are nicer than totalitarian ideologies of the right have no place here. Please give it a rest.
- pron 9y ago
  The debate is not over totalitarian regimes but over symbols, flags and emblems. If you don't understand the difference between what the communist flag and the Nazi flag represent, you may find it hard to understand why Nazi symbols are banned or restricted in various countries [1], while communist/socialist flags are waved with pride to this day, not only in many Western democracies but even in Russia [2]. In my country (Israel, where over 10% of the population is comprised of people who fled Soviet oppression), communism/socialism has been practiced (although not on a national level) for over 100 years in a democratic way, and on May 1st, kids in leftist youth movements carry red flags and sing the Internationale. Communist symbols (like, say, the Spanish flag), despite having been adopted by some of the most horrific and oppressive regimes, do not represent oppression or dehumanization, and they have also served as the flags of peaceful, democratic parties and organizations. The same is true for capitalist symbols, which, despite genocidal regimes (e.g. Belgium) are not recognized as hate symbols. Nazi symbols, however, are qualitatively different. BTW, to the best of my knowledge, even the professor in question is not posting pictures of Stalin or the Khmer Rouge flag. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E2%80%93World_War_II_legality_of_Nazi_flags https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E2%80%93World_War_II_lega... [2]: Here you can find a map of countries with at least one political party that's a member of the Socialist International, where communist/socialist symbols/emblems/flags are celebrated https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_International https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_International
  - tomhoward 9y ago
    Of course I'm aware of the purportedly benign displays of symbolism by social democratic organisations, and I don't have strong objections to those. But I'm also well aware of the violent instincts of some people on the far left (including people I know personally), who invoke the supposedly well-intentioned philosophies and symbols of communism to legitimise dark fantasies about violent attacks on others based on their race or class. I don't know much about the professor under discussion here, but from what I can see he doesn't seem to be doing much to distance himself from such conduct, and shows some signs of revelling in it. As someone who was raised on strong social democratic values, I now often find myself shocked at how much identity-based bigotry and rhetorical violence is tolerated or endorsed by people who claim to be of the left and who claim to stand against bigotry and violence. But most importantly, I really can't tell you how much I hate to be having this discussion on HackerNews. It is simply not what this site is for, and as a prominent member of this community, I really wish you would think better than to engage in this kind of campaigning here. It does nothing but make this place less pleasant and less interesting. That's all from me.