7 ms·

> In short; 'JR' has better success in business when he can under-pay his workers and ignore their health and safety needs and human rights. Being anti-union d

> In short; 'JR' has better success in business when he can under-pay his workers and ignore their health and safety needs and human rights. Being anti-union doesn't mean favoring slave labor or breaking laws. Many rights of workers are protected by legislation (depending where in the world you live), and unionism doesn't mean higher wages.

bobbyi_settv 9y ago
> Many rights of workers are protected by legislation That legislation exists because of unions
jackvalentine 9y ago
> Many rights of workers are protected by legislation How do you think those rights found their way in to the legislation, and remain there?
- iAMAGuest 9y ago
  > How do you think those rights found their way in to the legislation, and remain there? Look I not blind to the history, and protectionisms which came about from unionism. But that is a common retort, but also a bit of a straw man argument.
  - jackvalentine 9y ago
    > but also a bit of a straw man argument. I wasn't aware I was making an argument.
    - iAMAGuest 9y ago
      > I wasn't aware I was making an argument. Ok that makes sense now.
      - jackvalentine 9y ago
        Would you like to answer my question?
cortic 9y ago
how else are we to interpret a "corrosive us-against-them dynamic" Unions don't get involved unless there is violation of workers rights. And believe me anti-union does mean anti-workers-rights. "Many rights of workers are protected by legislation" - sure but employees are rarely able take the case to court without union backing.
- iAMAGuest 9y ago
  > "Many rights of workers are protected by legislation" - sure but employees are rarely able take the case to court without union backing. In several countries where I have lived you don't need a court for industrial conflicts, there are arbitrators, mediators, and small courts which deal with such items.
  - cortic 9y ago
    But without representation and legal advice such 'small courts' often rule on the side of money. Even before such a hearing can take place the employee can be subject to pressure and bullying and without representation in disciplinary meetings and the like they often end up quitting, or accepting treatment/warnings/disciplinary action they do not deserve. Without a union it will always be a David and Goliath story, but with a much more realistic ending.
jadell 9y ago
There's an entire holiday in the US, Labor Day, that specifically marks the struggle (including deaths!) of members of labor unions literally putting their lives on the line to secure those rights.
- iAMAGuest 9y ago
  > There's an entire holiday in the US, Labor Day For those of us whom are not American, there is a similar day strangely called Labour Day, which is celebrated world wide for similar reasons, Small world hey :) But in context what the unions did was important, it doesn't mean that they are needed, relevant, or beneficial in current day. We celebrate Xmas, but that doesn't mean that we have a guy wearing a Santa (non-christian) uniform everyday.
  - jadell 9y ago
    > We celebrate Xmas, but that doesn't mean that we have a guy wearing a Santa (non-christian) uniform everyday. But everyday we enjoy things like child labor laws, paid time off, safe working conditions, limits on shift-lengths, overtime pay, maternity/paternity leave, and myriad others.
    - iAMAGuest 9y ago
      Yes you/we do, for that we should be appreciative. But that doesn't speak as to the relevance of unions today.
    - cannonedhamster 9y ago
      We do in the US? Really? Salaried workers in tech routinely have 24-hour shifts without notice or compensation, especially when tied up in equity. I'd say if anything, worker rights have gotten further eroded with the loss of union power, add to that pay in most fields hasn't kept up with inflation, there's no paternity leave, more jobs being created are pushing education, retirement, healthcare, etc onto the worker, further eroding their wages just to keep their current job. Add to that the number of jobs being lost to automation, and workers really are not in a great spot, especially going forward, there's no way the current employment force can outstrip what a robot can do. It makes little sense to hire anything but contract employees at a certain point. Pretty soon you'll see micro-contracts to repair the bots, with a race to the bottom on price. I think that there's a massive market correction due to the employee-employer relationship.

bobbyi_settv 9y ago

> Many rights of workers are protected by legislation That legislation exists because of unions

jackvalentine 9y ago

> Many rights of workers are protected by legislation How do you think those rights found their way in to the legislation, and remain there?

iAMAGuest 9y ago
> How do you think those rights found their way in to the legislation, and remain there? Look I not blind to the history, and protectionisms which came about from unionism. But that is a common retort, but also a bit of a straw man argument.
- jackvalentine 9y ago
  > but also a bit of a straw man argument. I wasn't aware I was making an argument.
  - iAMAGuest 9y ago
    > I wasn't aware I was making an argument. Ok that makes sense now.
    - jackvalentine 9y ago
      Would you like to answer my question?

cortic 9y ago

how else are we to interpret a "corrosive us-against-them dynamic" Unions don't get involved unless there is violation of workers rights. And believe me anti-union does mean anti-workers-rights. "Many rights of workers are protected by legislation" - sure but employees are rarely able take the case to court without union backing.

iAMAGuest 9y ago
> "Many rights of workers are protected by legislation" - sure but employees are rarely able take the case to court without union backing. In several countries where I have lived you don't need a court for industrial conflicts, there are arbitrators, mediators, and small courts which deal with such items.
- cortic 9y ago
  But without representation and legal advice such 'small courts' often rule on the side of money. Even before such a hearing can take place the employee can be subject to pressure and bullying and without representation in disciplinary meetings and the like they often end up quitting, or accepting treatment/warnings/disciplinary action they do not deserve. Without a union it will always be a David and Goliath story, but with a much more realistic ending.

jadell 9y ago

There's an entire holiday in the US, Labor Day, that specifically marks the struggle (including deaths!) of members of labor unions literally putting their lives on the line to secure those rights.

iAMAGuest 9y ago
> There's an entire holiday in the US, Labor Day For those of us whom are not American, there is a similar day strangely called Labour Day, which is celebrated world wide for similar reasons, Small world hey :) But in context what the unions did was important, it doesn't mean that they are needed, relevant, or beneficial in current day. We celebrate Xmas, but that doesn't mean that we have a guy wearing a Santa (non-christian) uniform everyday.
- jadell 9y ago
  > We celebrate Xmas, but that doesn't mean that we have a guy wearing a Santa (non-christian) uniform everyday. But everyday we enjoy things like child labor laws, paid time off, safe working conditions, limits on shift-lengths, overtime pay, maternity/paternity leave, and myriad others.
  - iAMAGuest 9y ago
    Yes you/we do, for that we should be appreciative. But that doesn't speak as to the relevance of unions today.
  - cannonedhamster 9y ago
    We do in the US? Really? Salaried workers in tech routinely have 24-hour shifts without notice or compensation, especially when tied up in equity. I'd say if anything, worker rights have gotten further eroded with the loss of union power, add to that pay in most fields hasn't kept up with inflation, there's no paternity leave, more jobs being created are pushing education, retirement, healthcare, etc onto the worker, further eroding their wages just to keep their current job. Add to that the number of jobs being lost to automation, and workers really are not in a great spot, especially going forward, there's no way the current employment force can outstrip what a robot can do. It makes little sense to hire anything but contract employees at a certain point. Pretty soon you'll see micro-contracts to repair the bots, with a race to the bottom on price. I think that there's a massive market correction due to the employee-employer relationship.