8 ms·

I replied to jayniz, maybe you didn't see it. It's in the article 1.2 of the Spanish Constitution: > La soberanía nacional reside en el pueblo español, del qu

I replied to jayniz, maybe you didn't see it. It's in the article 1.2 of the Spanish Constitution: > La soberanía nacional reside en el pueblo español, del que emanan los poderes del Estado. (The national sovereignty resides in the Spanish people, from which emanate the powers of the State.)

ryanlol 9y ago
That certainly doesn't seem to outlaw people casting votes for independence.
- justin66 9y ago
  Indeed. It seems somewhat akin to "Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."
  - notspanishflu 9y ago
    But doesn't mean that. In law there isn't something like 'oh it seems this legal precept means...' All legal precepts have carefully chosen words and a spirit in which they're based.
    - justin66 9y ago
      Nothing about (the English translation of) that sentence supports what you keep asserting. If a Spanish high court decided that's what it means in a decision, that's fine, but you should probably link people to the text of their decision instead of repeating the phrase over and over again as if it's magical.
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  It means all the Spanish people have a say when talking about sovereignty, not only a part. That's why is illegal a election for secession with only a part of the Spanish census.
  - ryanlol 9y ago
    It still certainly doesn’t make it illegal to vote. This constitution merely tells you what’s a valid referendum and what isn’t. It’s not against the law to participate in an “invalid” one.
- foldr 9y ago
  http://www.loc.gov/law/foreign-news/article/spain-constitutional-court-finds-catalonia-sovereignty-declaration-unconstitutional/ http://www.loc.gov/law/foreign-news/article/spain-constituti...
  - ryanlol 9y ago
    This doesn’t seem to contain any information relevant to the legality of voting. It merely discusses the validity of the referendum, which is a separate issue.
    - foldr 9y ago
      Surely the two issues are intimately related. It's because the referendum is illegal that it's illegal to vote in it.
      - ryanlol 9y ago
        I don't understand your logic. Could you try to explain this using common legal concepts? The constitution merely invalidates the referendum, it doesn't actually make it illegal. However, obviously it's criminal to spend public money on organizing an unrecognized referendum. Given that the referendum itself isn't criminalized, it seems ridiculous to argue that simply by participating one would be violating the law. It's also important to keep in mind that even the Spanish government has not attempted to argue that it's illegal to vote. This is just a meme being spread on online forums by people who mostly don't even understand the difference between the constitution and the criminal law.
        foldr 9y ago
        I'm not an expert on Spanish law. (Are you?). I don't know whether merely voting is illegal or not at the level of individual people. But the issue seems largely moot, as it wouldn't be feasible to prosecute individual people for voting.
        9y ago

ryanlol 9y ago

That certainly doesn't seem to outlaw people casting votes for independence.

justin66 9y ago
Indeed. It seems somewhat akin to "Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  But doesn't mean that. In law there isn't something like 'oh it seems this legal precept means...' All legal precepts have carefully chosen words and a spirit in which they're based.
  - justin66 9y ago
    Nothing about (the English translation of) that sentence supports what you keep asserting. If a Spanish high court decided that's what it means in a decision, that's fine, but you should probably link people to the text of their decision instead of repeating the phrase over and over again as if it's magical.
notspanishflu 9y ago
It means all the Spanish people have a say when talking about sovereignty, not only a part. That's why is illegal a election for secession with only a part of the Spanish census.
- ryanlol 9y ago
  It still certainly doesn’t make it illegal to vote. This constitution merely tells you what’s a valid referendum and what isn’t. It’s not against the law to participate in an “invalid” one.
foldr 9y ago
http://www.loc.gov/law/foreign-news/article/spain-constitutional-court-finds-catalonia-sovereignty-declaration-unconstitutional/ http://www.loc.gov/law/foreign-news/article/spain-constituti...
- ryanlol 9y ago
  This doesn’t seem to contain any information relevant to the legality of voting. It merely discusses the validity of the referendum, which is a separate issue.
  - foldr 9y ago
    Surely the two issues are intimately related. It's because the referendum is illegal that it's illegal to vote in it.
    - ryanlol 9y ago
      I don't understand your logic. Could you try to explain this using common legal concepts? The constitution merely invalidates the referendum, it doesn't actually make it illegal. However, obviously it's criminal to spend public money on organizing an unrecognized referendum. Given that the referendum itself isn't criminalized, it seems ridiculous to argue that simply by participating one would be violating the law. It's also important to keep in mind that even the Spanish government has not attempted to argue that it's illegal to vote. This is just a meme being spread on online forums by people who mostly don't even understand the difference between the constitution and the criminal law.
      - foldr 9y ago
        I'm not an expert on Spanish law. (Are you?). I don't know whether merely voting is illegal or not at the level of individual people. But the issue seems largely moot, as it wouldn't be feasible to prosecute individual people for voting.
        9y ago