6 ms·

PBR for Audio Software Interfaces (2016)

35 points by chicago_wade 9y ago

benwad 9y ago
Does anyone have any experience with the DPlug framework? I've used IPlug for a few plugins and have been impressed (considering the lofty goals of the project) but D looks a lot more mature and well-thought-out. I found a comparison on their Github page (https://github.com/AuburnSounds/dplug#comparison-vs-iplug https://github.com/AuburnSounds/dplug#comparison-vs-iplug) but does anyone here have an opinion?
- p0nce 9y ago
  Dplug has two commercial users, you'll find the only opinion that is not mine here: http://www.modernmetalproduction.com/dplug-developing-vst-plugins-for-linux/ http://www.modernmetalproduction.com/dplug-developing-vst-pl... It's designed to be easier than Iplug in practice, however there are some missing features. BTW the reception here on HN can be entirely explained by the first negative comment...
ATsch 9y ago
Obligatory OT comment complaining about the site: I think this is one of the worst performing sites I have ever visited. When the gears in the top right are visible, my whole phone (oneplus one) stutters and when I scroll down, it takes up to a second for the page to follow and render in. I understand the need to make your site special, but if it's at the the cost of this much performance you should really overthink it.
- p0nce 9y ago
  Good point, I will perhaps remove it. On my phone tests if was okay.
Kuraj 9y ago
The article itself is very interesting but the skeuomorphic UI looks horrible to use - especially the knobs, because there is no intuitive AND practical way to emulate twisting stuff with a mouse pointer. Can anyone with practical experience with this tool share their opinion?
- dkersten 9y ago
  Yeah... audio software, especially VST plugins, have a tendency to 1) all invent their own UI styling and 2) use skeuomorphic designs. I wish this trend would stop, but it doesn't look at all likely.
  - Kuraj 9y ago
    It has its upsides, I guess - such as it would be instant to learn (if a bit cumbersome to use) for someone who already has experience with physical interfaces.
- zwerdlds 9y ago
  It's been a while since I used these UIs, but usually what happens is you click on the knob and it turns into a vertical slider. Not so bad really. The skeumorphic UI lets you move between the physical panel and the GUI pretty seamlessly. Not saying there isn't a better option, but this at least is pretty nice for beginners.
  - dkersten 9y ago
    Except for a few emulations of hardware, most of these UI's don't correlate to a physical panel and the lack of consistency between the various virtual-only ones, IMHO, negates any benefit from a consistency point of view. Having something look like a physical knob is one thing, but when each plugin you have has its own different style of "physical knob" design, I find it gets messy personally.
- tomc1985 9y ago
  Music plugins have to have skeumorphic UIs, nobody wants to twist generic looking knobs. C'mon man, these are artists, they are not the average muggle. If designers from this world got ahold of the music scene from that world plugins would get considerably worse, as UI's would be the focus of intense simplification, leaving complex features and their power users by the wayside.
  - 9y ago
AceJohnny2 9y ago
Oh skeuomorphic hell in DAW software... I love this rant/gallery: https://theoutline.com/post/2157/why-are-there-so-many-knobs-in-garage-band?utm_source=TW https://theoutline.com/post/2157/why-are-there-so-many-knobs...
- justaaron 9y ago
  analog metaphors to physical world objects are INTENTIONAL here! otherwise why would you pay MONEY for software when you already bought the computer and you could instead shell-out for a glorified paperweight ermmm a dedicated processor running the same software in a fancy box! (replete with slow knob-control response, just like the plugin running on a 486 and the worst midi interface the market doesn't even sell anymore, as it was made with desktop software tools and that guy who coded the original 6502 synth that ran 500 oscillators oversampled 5 million times retired last year and he's busy doing cobol for money anyway...but I digress)
janoc 9y ago
So, now an audio plugin system has a physically based graphics rendering engine using OpenGL - in order to save diskspace by eliminating pictures of KNOBS? Am I the only person who considers this beyond idiotic? So now the audio processing machine doesn't need only a powerful CPU for audio but also a good GPU with good OpenGL drivers so that a plugin (not even the main application, but a plugin!) can draw its knobs? Seriously, what were they thinking? Why does a plugin even need photo-realistic looking controls? It is not like they work any better than a regular button or slider ... There is a saying in engineering - "That you can do something doesn't mean you should ..." double facepalm
- justaaron 9y ago
  yes! you are CORRECT sir! and this is due to the "END USER" who is fooled by such nonsense. There are studies showing respondents registering sonic differences when shown different UI... pathetic but true... and 100% the fault of the golden-ears golden-cable audio mythology B$ that has already ruined any pretense of objectivity in the Hi-Fi world and has basically been milking the pro-audio market, thanks to cooperative reviews and an industry that has a lot at stake if it speaks up...
  - p0nce 9y ago
    Nothing prevent you from opening plugins without UI if you are wary of the halo effect. We spend a lot of time on audio algorithm, much more than the UI. In the end plugins have to sound good whatever their UI, it's just that when you work hard on a DSP algorithm it only makes sense to present it in the best way, and not spoil your chance.
- infogulch 9y ago
  Oh. I was hoping it was a metaphor, and they were actually generating sounds based on the physical properties of a 3D environment. PBR for sounds as in "rendering" a sound wave.
- p0nce 9y ago
  1. Dplug is using software rendering not OpenGL. Get your facts straight before "calling out" people on the Internet. So the OpenGL driver doesn't matter in any way. By the way, many audio plugins now use OpenGL, just not those. 2. Do you think it's normal an audio plugins would weight more than 100mb of graphics, including memory? No, that's why Dplug uses rendering (in part). It uses less memory space AND installation space and with caching it's not any slower. 3. I do not thank you for calling this idiotic on a public forum, without reading the article. What has became of politeness? 4. Photo-realistic != rendering. We are not after photo-realism. Instead natural lighting effect can help getting into a software by making logical groups and also convey value. Dplug PBR system can be bypassed to support the subset of rendering that other framework do. 5. Many other brands use OpenGL. We don't, exactly for the reasons you outline. Please amend your comment and drop the hate speech.
fabiofzero 9y ago
The UI would be much better with just the base color channel. The other bells and whistles are just skeuomorphic masturbation and actually get in the way of understanding what's actually going on in the UI. There's a reason why most DAWs are adopting a simplified, mostly flat and highly readable UI, and this goes absolutely against the current trend.
p0nce 9y ago
Hi, author here. Just a reminder that we don't use OpenGL, and that it's not skeuomorphism if you don't have virtual screws :)

35 points by chicago_wade 9y ago

Does anyone have any experience with the DPlug framework? I've used IPlug for a few plugins and have been impressed (considering the lofty goals of the project) but D looks a lot more mature and well-thought-out. I found a comparison on their Github page (https://github.com/AuburnSounds/dplug#comparison-vs-iplug https://github.com/AuburnSounds/dplug#comparison-vs-iplug) but does anyone here have an opinion?

p0nce 9y ago
Dplug has two commercial users, you'll find the only opinion that is not mine here: http://www.modernmetalproduction.com/dplug-developing-vst-plugins-for-linux/ http://www.modernmetalproduction.com/dplug-developing-vst-pl... It's designed to be easier than Iplug in practice, however there are some missing features. BTW the reception here on HN can be entirely explained by the first negative comment...

ATsch 9y ago

Obligatory OT comment complaining about the site: I think this is one of the worst performing sites I have ever visited. When the gears in the top right are visible, my whole phone (oneplus one) stutters and when I scroll down, it takes up to a second for the page to follow and render in. I understand the need to make your site special, but if it's at the the cost of this much performance you should really overthink it.

p0nce 9y ago
Good point, I will perhaps remove it. On my phone tests if was okay.

Kuraj 9y ago

The article itself is very interesting but the skeuomorphic UI looks horrible to use - especially the knobs, because there is no intuitive AND practical way to emulate twisting stuff with a mouse pointer. Can anyone with practical experience with this tool share their opinion?

dkersten 9y ago
Yeah... audio software, especially VST plugins, have a tendency to 1) all invent their own UI styling and 2) use skeuomorphic designs. I wish this trend would stop, but it doesn't look at all likely.
- Kuraj 9y ago
  It has its upsides, I guess - such as it would be instant to learn (if a bit cumbersome to use) for someone who already has experience with physical interfaces.
zwerdlds 9y ago
It's been a while since I used these UIs, but usually what happens is you click on the knob and it turns into a vertical slider. Not so bad really. The skeumorphic UI lets you move between the physical panel and the GUI pretty seamlessly. Not saying there isn't a better option, but this at least is pretty nice for beginners.
- dkersten 9y ago
  Except for a few emulations of hardware, most of these UI's don't correlate to a physical panel and the lack of consistency between the various virtual-only ones, IMHO, negates any benefit from a consistency point of view. Having something look like a physical knob is one thing, but when each plugin you have has its own different style of "physical knob" design, I find it gets messy personally.
tomc1985 9y ago
Music plugins have to have skeumorphic UIs, nobody wants to twist generic looking knobs. C'mon man, these are artists, they are not the average muggle. If designers from this world got ahold of the music scene from that world plugins would get considerably worse, as UI's would be the focus of intense simplification, leaving complex features and their power users by the wayside.
- 9y ago

AceJohnny2 9y ago

Oh skeuomorphic hell in DAW software... I love this rant/gallery: https://theoutline.com/post/2157/why-are-there-so-many-knobs-in-garage-band?utm_source=TW https://theoutline.com/post/2157/why-are-there-so-many-knobs...

justaaron 9y ago
analog metaphors to physical world objects are INTENTIONAL here! otherwise why would you pay MONEY for software when you already bought the computer and you could instead shell-out for a glorified paperweight ermmm a dedicated processor running the same software in a fancy box! (replete with slow knob-control response, just like the plugin running on a 486 and the worst midi interface the market doesn't even sell anymore, as it was made with desktop software tools and that guy who coded the original 6502 synth that ran 500 oscillators oversampled 5 million times retired last year and he's busy doing cobol for money anyway...but I digress)

janoc 9y ago

So, now an audio plugin system has a physically based graphics rendering engine using OpenGL - in order to save diskspace by eliminating pictures of KNOBS? Am I the only person who considers this beyond idiotic? So now the audio processing machine doesn't need only a powerful CPU for audio but also a good GPU with good OpenGL drivers so that a plugin (not even the main application, but a plugin!) can draw its knobs? Seriously, what were they thinking? Why does a plugin even need photo-realistic looking controls? It is not like they work any better than a regular button or slider ... There is a saying in engineering - "That you can do something doesn't mean you should ..." double facepalm

justaaron 9y ago
yes! you are CORRECT sir! and this is due to the "END USER" who is fooled by such nonsense. There are studies showing respondents registering sonic differences when shown different UI... pathetic but true... and 100% the fault of the golden-ears golden-cable audio mythology B$ that has already ruined any pretense of objectivity in the Hi-Fi world and has basically been milking the pro-audio market, thanks to cooperative reviews and an industry that has a lot at stake if it speaks up...
- p0nce 9y ago
  Nothing prevent you from opening plugins without UI if you are wary of the halo effect. We spend a lot of time on audio algorithm, much more than the UI. In the end plugins have to sound good whatever their UI, it's just that when you work hard on a DSP algorithm it only makes sense to present it in the best way, and not spoil your chance.
infogulch 9y ago
Oh. I was hoping it was a metaphor, and they were actually generating sounds based on the physical properties of a 3D environment. PBR for sounds as in "rendering" a sound wave.
p0nce 9y ago
1. Dplug is using software rendering not OpenGL. Get your facts straight before "calling out" people on the Internet. So the OpenGL driver doesn't matter in any way. By the way, many audio plugins now use OpenGL, just not those. 2. Do you think it's normal an audio plugins would weight more than 100mb of graphics, including memory? No, that's why Dplug uses rendering (in part). It uses less memory space AND installation space and with caching it's not any slower. 3. I do not thank you for calling this idiotic on a public forum, without reading the article. What has became of politeness? 4. Photo-realistic != rendering. We are not after photo-realism. Instead natural lighting effect can help getting into a software by making logical groups and also convey value. Dplug PBR system can be bypassed to support the subset of rendering that other framework do. 5. Many other brands use OpenGL. We don't, exactly for the reasons you outline. Please amend your comment and drop the hate speech.

fabiofzero 9y ago

The UI would be much better with just the base color channel. The other bells and whistles are just skeuomorphic masturbation and actually get in the way of understanding what's actually going on in the UI. There's a reason why most DAWs are adopting a simplified, mostly flat and highly readable UI, and this goes absolutely against the current trend.

p0nce 9y ago

Hi, author here. Just a reminder that we don't use OpenGL, and that it's not skeuomorphism if you don't have virtual screws :)