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Wow. So if I'm understanding the article correctly, it says that tribalism occurs both naturally and in simulations. However, even though this is the case, we s

Wow. So if I'm understanding the article correctly, it says that tribalism occurs both naturally and in simulations. However, even though this is the case, we should despise tribalism for some reason that is frankly not exactly clear. does the depth of cultural self-loathing know no bound?

deleted 9y ago
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gt_ 9y ago
>So if I'm understanding the article correctly, it says that tribalism occurs both naturally and in simulations. My take was that the article does not quite make these claims, but uses the simulations to model implications of them. >we should despise tribalism for some reason that is frankly not exactly clear We should move beyond tribalism because of it's inherence of prejudice.
- duckingtest 9y ago
  What these simulations show is that tribalism is a winning strategy. Which means not following it leads to death. >We should move beyond tribalism because of it's inherence of prejudice. Considering an inherent property of a winning strategy evil means your code is non-optimal and is inevitably going to disappear.
  - gt_ 9y ago
    It is a 'winning strategy' only for the winners. We can just as well call it a 'losing strategy'. As the players become more intelligent, they are able to cooperate better and everyone wins, meaning cooperation is even 'more winning'. That is, unless your intentions here are something like eugenics.
    - duckingtest 9y ago
      It's only possible for everyone to win if basic resources are infinite. Tribalism is the only pareto optimal strategy for finite resources, especially land on Earth.
- PeterisP 9y ago
  It does seem that the article makes these claims - it describes a particular experiment where they unexpectedly discovered that tribalism emerged as the dominant (most successful) strategy in a competitive game they simulated.
crispinb 9y ago
> does the depth of cultural self-loathing know no bound I'm puzzled by this (possibly rhetorical?) question. Which culture is supposed to be loathing itself here?
- raverbashing 9y ago
  Something that would be called "western/christian/european" civilization
  - crispinb 9y ago
    Hardly that I would think. The anti-tribal direction of modern world history originated in the Enlightenment, which, although catalysed by contacts with Muslim, Indian and Chinese civilisations, was nothing if not profoundly 'Western'.
    - vikiomega9 9y ago
      How is "western/christian/european" different from "western"? EDIT: the current framework of international order has roots in Westphalian notions of nation states, which is indeed christian and european.
  - jacobolus 9y ago
    One big point of “Western civilization” (religious mores about cousin marriage and inheritance; the classical liberal / republican tradition with religious toleration and representative government; science; European legal traditions with an independent judiciary; economic liberalism; down through to the Geneva Conventions; the UN and similar institutions; the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; universal education; universal suffrage; etc.) is rejecting tribalism in favor of the rule of law and more just and egalitarian social relations and decisionmaking processes.
    - raverbashing 9y ago
      > religious mores about cousin marriage and inheritance (just because I didn't know that word) Mores: "The accepted traditional customs and usages of a particular social group." > is rejecting tribalism in favor of the rule of law Agreed. You just have to convince the other "tribes" to do that as well. And the more people are forced to accept other people from a more distant (not geographical distance) culture, the stronger the backlash is > more egalitarian social relations and decisionmaking processes How many forced marriages, FGMs and honour killings are happening now under the auspice of western secular governments/societies?
jameslk 9y ago
Sex is a natural desire, but it's probably a good thing we have laws against those who force their way onto others whenever they're horny. Just because it's natural doesn't necessarily mean it's best.
- micheljones 9y ago
  You are positing a false dichotomy here. Equivalent conclusion would be that 'sex is a natural malfunction and needs to be removed'.
jamesrcole 9y ago
Tribalism tends to mean an "us vs them" attitude with emotive, knee-jerk dislike and demonising of "them", plus a disdain for constructive criticism of "us". I think history provides plenty of evidence of this and of how toxic it is.
- golemotron 9y ago
  The irony is that the people who complain loudest about tribalism (nationalism, xenophobia) in contemporary political culture display exactly those attitudes toward people they disagree with. Anyone who thinks tribalism can be eliminated lacks self awareness or a least a mirror.
  - jamesrcole 9y ago
    That's definitely an issue. Regarding your second point, it's not a matter of the level of tribalism staying the same vs completely eliminating it. I think the overall levels have been reduced over the centuries, and there are people out there that are pretty non-tribalistic in outlook.
benfle 9y ago
Other things that occur both naturally and in simulations: revenge, jealousy, violence, territoriality, oligarchy, thumb sucking...

deleted 9y ago

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gt_ 9y ago

>So if I'm understanding the article correctly, it says that tribalism occurs both naturally and in simulations. My take was that the article does not quite make these claims, but uses the simulations to model implications of them. >we should despise tribalism for some reason that is frankly not exactly clear We should move beyond tribalism because of it's inherence of prejudice.

duckingtest 9y ago
What these simulations show is that tribalism is a winning strategy. Which means not following it leads to death. >We should move beyond tribalism because of it's inherence of prejudice. Considering an inherent property of a winning strategy evil means your code is non-optimal and is inevitably going to disappear.
- gt_ 9y ago
  It is a 'winning strategy' only for the winners. We can just as well call it a 'losing strategy'. As the players become more intelligent, they are able to cooperate better and everyone wins, meaning cooperation is even 'more winning'. That is, unless your intentions here are something like eugenics.
  - duckingtest 9y ago
    It's only possible for everyone to win if basic resources are infinite. Tribalism is the only pareto optimal strategy for finite resources, especially land on Earth.
PeterisP 9y ago
It does seem that the article makes these claims - it describes a particular experiment where they unexpectedly discovered that tribalism emerged as the dominant (most successful) strategy in a competitive game they simulated.

crispinb 9y ago

> does the depth of cultural self-loathing know no bound I'm puzzled by this (possibly rhetorical?) question. Which culture is supposed to be loathing itself here?

raverbashing 9y ago
Something that would be called "western/christian/european" civilization
- crispinb 9y ago
  Hardly that I would think. The anti-tribal direction of modern world history originated in the Enlightenment, which, although catalysed by contacts with Muslim, Indian and Chinese civilisations, was nothing if not profoundly 'Western'.
  - vikiomega9 9y ago
    How is "western/christian/european" different from "western"? EDIT: the current framework of international order has roots in Westphalian notions of nation states, which is indeed christian and european.
- jacobolus 9y ago
  One big point of “Western civilization” (religious mores about cousin marriage and inheritance; the classical liberal / republican tradition with religious toleration and representative government; science; European legal traditions with an independent judiciary; economic liberalism; down through to the Geneva Conventions; the UN and similar institutions; the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; universal education; universal suffrage; etc.) is rejecting tribalism in favor of the rule of law and more just and egalitarian social relations and decisionmaking processes.
  - raverbashing 9y ago
    > religious mores about cousin marriage and inheritance (just because I didn't know that word) Mores: "The accepted traditional customs and usages of a particular social group." > is rejecting tribalism in favor of the rule of law Agreed. You just have to convince the other "tribes" to do that as well. And the more people are forced to accept other people from a more distant (not geographical distance) culture, the stronger the backlash is > more egalitarian social relations and decisionmaking processes How many forced marriages, FGMs and honour killings are happening now under the auspice of western secular governments/societies?

jameslk 9y ago

Sex is a natural desire, but it's probably a good thing we have laws against those who force their way onto others whenever they're horny. Just because it's natural doesn't necessarily mean it's best.

micheljones 9y ago
You are positing a false dichotomy here. Equivalent conclusion would be that 'sex is a natural malfunction and needs to be removed'.

jamesrcole 9y ago

Tribalism tends to mean an "us vs them" attitude with emotive, knee-jerk dislike and demonising of "them", plus a disdain for constructive criticism of "us". I think history provides plenty of evidence of this and of how toxic it is.

golemotron 9y ago
The irony is that the people who complain loudest about tribalism (nationalism, xenophobia) in contemporary political culture display exactly those attitudes toward people they disagree with. Anyone who thinks tribalism can be eliminated lacks self awareness or a least a mirror.
- jamesrcole 9y ago
  That's definitely an issue. Regarding your second point, it's not a matter of the level of tribalism staying the same vs completely eliminating it. I think the overall levels have been reduced over the centuries, and there are people out there that are pretty non-tribalistic in outlook.

benfle 9y ago

Other things that occur both naturally and in simulations: revenge, jealousy, violence, territoriality, oligarchy, thumb sucking...