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Nice collection of Linux distributions I'd like to avoid now. There might be some issues with systemd, but systemd is by far much better than anything else we

Nice collection of Linux distributions I'd like to avoid now. There might be some issues with systemd, but systemd is by far much better than anything else we had before.

myusernameisok 9y ago
With the exception of slackware (which aims to be the most Unix-like Linux distro) I don't understand all the hate for systemd and why people continually try to remove it from their system. I've read countless blogs on the pitfalls of systemd, but all the benefits of systemd outweigh the downsides. It seems there are a lot of people who get way too hung up on sticking to the UNIX philosophy as closely as possible without taking other factors into consideration.
- arca_vorago 9y ago
  Then quite simply you haven't been listening or paying attention. I'm a gnu/gpl proponent, so I come into the systemd debate leaning towards the side that is simply requesting (why should they even have to? They don't!) init diversity. I've heard plenty of reasoned debate between both sides though, and things like "why people continually try to remove" have been layed out time and time again. So after showing you aren't even aware of the current debates which are still ongoing, you try to criticize their points as being "too hung up on sticking to the UNIX philosophy"? That's not a good description of the antisystemd sides arguments, because the positions I have seen taken are more varied than that. Essentially that was just a strawman you took out of your hat because its one that sounds good. Oh and if it's worth anything, as a sysadmin who has to support all the distro's, systemd has not been a panacea as touted by any stretch of the imagination. For example, logging. Why is that now a systemd thing? Just cause systemd is the creepy uncle that likes to touch everything it can? So I'm just gonna pipe that crap into syslog anyway... and don't get me started on LP's shenanigans. I fully support devuan and all others in their pursuit of init freedom, because the user deserves to have choice. I hope fully gplv3'd init wins (systemd being agplv2 I think).
  - msla 9y ago
    The anti-systemd trolling puts me off the whole anti-systemd camp as well. It's dishonest, as far as I can tell: People trying to stir up trouble simply because they think they've found a new stick to poke people with, who don't understand the issue except to the extent it apparently is an issue for some people, but who can damned well be loud and obstreperous and who can make it sound like you're the one who is ignorant and you're the one who should be shamed. Well, no. I don't feel shame for my choice of software. Sorry.
  - rekado 9y ago
    > I hope fully gplv3'd init wins That's a bit of an odd thing to focus on (and I say this as a GNU person). But if you're looking for an init under the GPLv3 (or later): the GNU Shepherd fits that query. https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/ I like the Shepherd but I don't see it winning over people who compare its feature set with other more featureful init systems.
    - arca_vorago 9y ago
      Thanks for the info, I am increasingly convinced I need to dig into guile/guix.
  - myusernameisok 9y ago
    > Why is that now a systemd thing? Just cause systemd is the creepy uncle that likes to touch everything it can? So I'm just gonna pipe that crap into syslog anyway... and don't get me started on LP's shenanigans. Feature creep falls under the umbrella of sticking to the UNIX philosophy too closely, the first point of the UNIX philosphy is: > Make each program do one thing well. To do a new job, build afresh rather than complicate old programs by adding new "features". In any case, I think it's arguable if it's feature creep or not. The goal of an init system is to start your system up, it makes sense that the thing that starts daemons would also monitor them, take logs, and do other support actions as well. The only complaint I actually agree is that systemd/journald uses a binary format to store logs, but I don't think that's a good enough complaint to warrant all the hatred.
green7ea 9y ago
I'm using Void Linux which uses runit. Systemd is fine but runit works just as well. Void Linux has a bunch of other nice things (musl, xbps, build system, etc.). It would be a shame to overlook this fine distribution.
- jrs95 9y ago
  I had just recently tried to install this, but then I encountered a very strange bug with Firefox where any tab crashed immediately upon opening with some sort of IPC error, and I tried searching around but couldn't find any mention of it anywhere. I ended up just giving up on fighting systemd and install Xubuntu.
- pmoriarty 9y ago
  I love runit. It's simple and elegant, is in tune with the Unix Philosophy, and doesn't try to absorb a ton of unrelated, independent services into itself like systemd does. If something like runit was chosen by RedHat and the distros that followed it, this holy war wouldn't exist.
LinuxBender 9y ago
> There might be some issues with systemd, but systemd is by far much better than anything else we had before. Upstart was perfectly fine and just as fast. I've been moving all my personal systems over to Alpine Linux. Many others are doing the same. More complex services are being containerized and will eventually be ported to CoreOS. PotteringOS is adding too much complexity and cruft and bugs[1] to my otherwise simple systems. Linux/Unix is supposed to be boring, simple, predictable, stable. This is not the case with SystemD in my experience. [1] https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/07/28/black_hat_pwnie_awards/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/07/28/black_hat_pwnie_awa...
- viraptor 9y ago
  Upstart was on the good path, but had its own issues as well. Detecting which process it should track was rather tricky in some cases. For example any server optionally spawning an extra command before forking is not possible to configure in a generic way. Shutting things down properly without cgroups can be bad too. (It's server's fault, but good init can help here) I imagine it would get better if upstart got a serious v2 or higher, but it seems it won't get serious changes anymore.

Nice collection of Linux distributions I'd like to avoid now. There might be some issues with systemd, but systemd is by far much better than anything else we had before.

myusernameisok 9y ago

With the exception of slackware (which aims to be the most Unix-like Linux distro) I don't understand all the hate for systemd and why people continually try to remove it from their system. I've read countless blogs on the pitfalls of systemd, but all the benefits of systemd outweigh the downsides. It seems there are a lot of people who get way too hung up on sticking to the UNIX philosophy as closely as possible without taking other factors into consideration.

arca_vorago 9y ago
Then quite simply you haven't been listening or paying attention. I'm a gnu/gpl proponent, so I come into the systemd debate leaning towards the side that is simply requesting (why should they even have to? They don't!) init diversity. I've heard plenty of reasoned debate between both sides though, and things like "why people continually try to remove" have been layed out time and time again. So after showing you aren't even aware of the current debates which are still ongoing, you try to criticize their points as being "too hung up on sticking to the UNIX philosophy"? That's not a good description of the antisystemd sides arguments, because the positions I have seen taken are more varied than that. Essentially that was just a strawman you took out of your hat because its one that sounds good. Oh and if it's worth anything, as a sysadmin who has to support all the distro's, systemd has not been a panacea as touted by any stretch of the imagination. For example, logging. Why is that now a systemd thing? Just cause systemd is the creepy uncle that likes to touch everything it can? So I'm just gonna pipe that crap into syslog anyway... and don't get me started on LP's shenanigans. I fully support devuan and all others in their pursuit of init freedom, because the user deserves to have choice. I hope fully gplv3'd init wins (systemd being agplv2 I think).
- msla 9y ago
  The anti-systemd trolling puts me off the whole anti-systemd camp as well. It's dishonest, as far as I can tell: People trying to stir up trouble simply because they think they've found a new stick to poke people with, who don't understand the issue except to the extent it apparently is an issue for some people, but who can damned well be loud and obstreperous and who can make it sound like you're the one who is ignorant and you're the one who should be shamed. Well, no. I don't feel shame for my choice of software. Sorry.
- rekado 9y ago
  > I hope fully gplv3'd init wins That's a bit of an odd thing to focus on (and I say this as a GNU person). But if you're looking for an init under the GPLv3 (or later): the GNU Shepherd fits that query. https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/ I like the Shepherd but I don't see it winning over people who compare its feature set with other more featureful init systems.
  - arca_vorago 9y ago
    Thanks for the info, I am increasingly convinced I need to dig into guile/guix.
- myusernameisok 9y ago
  > Why is that now a systemd thing? Just cause systemd is the creepy uncle that likes to touch everything it can? So I'm just gonna pipe that crap into syslog anyway... and don't get me started on LP's shenanigans. Feature creep falls under the umbrella of sticking to the UNIX philosophy too closely, the first point of the UNIX philosphy is: > Make each program do one thing well. To do a new job, build afresh rather than complicate old programs by adding new "features". In any case, I think it's arguable if it's feature creep or not. The goal of an init system is to start your system up, it makes sense that the thing that starts daemons would also monitor them, take logs, and do other support actions as well. The only complaint I actually agree is that systemd/journald uses a binary format to store logs, but I don't think that's a good enough complaint to warrant all the hatred.

green7ea 9y ago

I'm using Void Linux which uses runit. Systemd is fine but runit works just as well. Void Linux has a bunch of other nice things (musl, xbps, build system, etc.). It would be a shame to overlook this fine distribution.

jrs95 9y ago
I had just recently tried to install this, but then I encountered a very strange bug with Firefox where any tab crashed immediately upon opening with some sort of IPC error, and I tried searching around but couldn't find any mention of it anywhere. I ended up just giving up on fighting systemd and install Xubuntu.
pmoriarty 9y ago
I love runit. It's simple and elegant, is in tune with the Unix Philosophy, and doesn't try to absorb a ton of unrelated, independent services into itself like systemd does. If something like runit was chosen by RedHat and the distros that followed it, this holy war wouldn't exist.

LinuxBender 9y ago

> There might be some issues with systemd, but systemd is by far much better than anything else we had before. Upstart was perfectly fine and just as fast. I've been moving all my personal systems over to Alpine Linux. Many others are doing the same. More complex services are being containerized and will eventually be ported to CoreOS. PotteringOS is adding too much complexity and cruft and bugs[1] to my otherwise simple systems. Linux/Unix is supposed to be boring, simple, predictable, stable. This is not the case with SystemD in my experience. [1] https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/07/28/black_hat_pwnie_awards/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/07/28/black_hat_pwnie_awa...

viraptor 9y ago
Upstart was on the good path, but had its own issues as well. Detecting which process it should track was rather tricky in some cases. For example any server optionally spawning an extra command before forking is not possible to configure in a generic way. Shutting things down properly without cgroups can be bad too. (It's server's fault, but good init can help here) I imagine it would get better if upstart got a serious v2 or higher, but it seems it won't get serious changes anymore.