7 ms·

I guess you are talking processed, adultered meat. If you have normal organic meat there is no problem at all. Likely we have been eating meat from the beginnin

I guess you are talking processed, adultered meat. If you have normal organic meat there is no problem at all. Likely we have been eating meat from the beginning of our existance. The problem is that the anti meat lobby like peta or sugar-bread industry want us to buy more of their products. Keto is a really good healthy diet its just that requires that you educate yourself and also is really hard to mantain because we are really very addicted to bread, flour and sugar.

cageface 9y ago
Even organic meat and fish has a lot of downsides. Animal fat and protein is not good for us. Check the videos at nutritionfacts.org for details.
- shirro 9y ago
  nurtitionfacts.org is run by Michael Greger who is a vegan animal welfare crusader. Many of the articles have a factual basis but there is cherry picking to promote animal free diets so it is not an unbiased source.
  - KitDuncan 9y ago
    Yeah this website is definitely to be taken with a grain of salt (even though Greger wouldn't be happy about the sodium intake), but at least he thoroughly cites his sources. Websites advocating for a Ketogenic diet feel just as biased and most of the time don't have half the research backing it.
  - cageface 9y ago
    He backs up all his claims with extensive citations from recent, peer reviewed studies. The link between meat and heart disease, diabetes, and even cancer is very well established now. Anecdotally, keto diet did absolutely nothing for me except make me feel even worse, whereas I’ve noticed dramatic improvements in mood and health after three weeks of a purely plant based diet.
    - scottLobster 9y ago
      Does your plant-based diet include bread/carbs, and did you stick with the keto diet for more than a few days? Usually when people feel like crap (initially) on keto it's their bodies switching over from primarily burning sugar to primarily burning fat, but it subsides after a few hours/days depending on the person/diet (look up "keto flu"). Note that keto does not necessarily include meat. You'd get the same effect eating nothing but raw vegetables for a week.
      - cageface 9y ago
        I eat complex carbs like brown rice. I avoid refined carbs. I did keto for two weeks and finally had to stop because I felt worse and hated what I was eating. To be clear I was eating the kind of keto diet I usually see people endorse which is very heavy in animal fat and protein. In contrast I’ve been purely plant based for three weeks now and I’ve noticed dramatic improvements in my mood and energy levels. I’ve lost a bit of weight and I really enjoy what I’m eating. The numbness and swelling I’ve struggled with for over a year as a result of surgery for a broken leg has also massively improved, which I didn’t expect.
        invisible 9y ago
        I've switched to a diet that is mostly plant based with small portions of meat occasionally and low carb intake. I don't agree that "plant based" is the reason you feel better but I do think not eating huge quantities of meat and carbohydrates/sugar causes your body to be a little more accommodating.
        cageface 9y ago
        The link between consumption of saturated fat and cholesterol with cardiovascular disease is extremely well established so I don't think it's a coincidence that I feel this much better after cutting them out of my diet.
        9y ago
  - zz00vv 9y ago
    This is an ad hominem and quite unfair. Michael Greger states himself that he does not like the term veganism, and he also writes that it was the health benefits of a plant based diet that led him to promote that diet. To call him a "vegan animal welfare crusader" is a bit hyperbolic to say the least. From Greger's book How Not to Die he writes in the Introduction to Part 2: > From a nutrition standpoint, the reason I don’t like the terms vegetarian and vegan is that they are only defined by what you don’t eat. When I used to speak on college campuses, I would meet vegans who appeared to be living off french fries and beer. Vegan, technically, but not exactly health promoting. That’s why I prefer the term whole-food, plant-based nutrition. As far as I can discern, the best available balance of evidence suggests that the healthiest diet is one centered on unprocessed plant foods. On a day-today basis, the more whole plant foods and the fewer processed and animal products, the better. And from the Preface of How Not to Die he writes: > True, I have biases of my own to rein in. Although my original motivation was health, over the years, I’ve grown into quite the animal lover. Three cats and a dog run our household, and I’ve spent much of my professional life proudly serving the Humane Society of the United States as the charity’s public health director. So, like many people, I care about the welfare of the animals we eat, but first and foremost, I am a physician. My primary duty has always been to care for my patients, to accurately provide the best available balance of evidence.
KitDuncan 9y ago
I really hate this argument. On one hand Keto advocates cry about the grain and sugar lobby, on the other they don't even consider the massive outreach the livestock lobby has and their interest in pushing this diet. Even organic meat and animal products don't come without health risks and it comes at substantial cost to our environment.
- nightski 9y ago
  You don't have to eat a lot of meat on this diet. I've been on the diet for years, have read a lot of information on it (fortunately it's been used for medical purposes for over 100 years so there is plenty of material). I personally eat a few ounces a day because I enjoy it. But it could easily be left out, I'd just have to get my protein elsewhere.
brookside 9y ago
Why would organic meat be better? Link to science?
- scottLobster 9y ago
  In the case of Beef, grass fed beef has substantially better fat/cholesterol profile, and more micro-nutrients/antioxidants https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2891-9-10 https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2... http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/heart-disease/expert-answers/grass-fed-beef/faq-20058059 http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/heart-disease/... Granted that's a relative judgement. Too much meat, even organic meat, can be unhealthy depending on a number of factors.
shlant 9y ago
> If you have normal organic meat there is no problem at all Source? Because all of this seems to show otherwise: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23306319 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23306319 http://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j1957 http://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j1957 http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/85/2/518.full http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/85/2/518.full http://cancerpreventionresearch.aacrjournals.org/content/canprevres/4/2/177.full.pdf http://cancerpreventionresearch.aacrjournals.org/content/can... > Likely we have been eating meat from the beginning of our existance Just because we have evolved eating meat, doesn't necessarily mean it is the most optimal. Appeal to Nature. > The problem is that the anti meat lobby like peta or sugar-bread industry want us to buy more of their products What "products" is PETA selling??? I have a lot of qualms with PETA, but I have never seen them vindicated in this way... > Keto is a really good healthy diet its just that requires that you educate yourself You seem to be really invested in the diet. Maybe you have some bias?
- nightski 9y ago
  Look, you can be on a ketogenic diet and not eat meat at all. I eat a few ounces a day. I could easily not eat any at all and still maintain a high fat ketogenic diet, but I enjoy the flavor. I also have read plenty of studies that contradict the ones above. I'm not saying they are necessarily wrong. But I find medical statistical studies very hard to interpret because they don't control for all the factors and the data is not super reliable. Often the conclusions seem excessive given the data that is actually there.
  - shlant 9y ago
    > Look, you can be on a ketogenic diet and not eat meat at all. For sure, but I doubt most people doing Keto are eating very little to no meat. > I find medical statistical studies very hard to interpret because they don't control for all the factors and the data is not super reliable Ok so you are suggesting we throw out all studies because they may or may not control for all the variables? That seems like a zero sum proposition that is a bit overkill. Of course there are some studies that are less rigorously controlled than others, but to conclude that no studies can be trusted because "medical statistical studies very hard to interpret" and "the data is not super reliable" just seems like an excuse to ignore what is very compelling evidence.

cageface 9y ago

Even organic meat and fish has a lot of downsides. Animal fat and protein is not good for us. Check the videos at nutritionfacts.org for details.

shirro 9y ago
nurtitionfacts.org is run by Michael Greger who is a vegan animal welfare crusader. Many of the articles have a factual basis but there is cherry picking to promote animal free diets so it is not an unbiased source.
- KitDuncan 9y ago
  Yeah this website is definitely to be taken with a grain of salt (even though Greger wouldn't be happy about the sodium intake), but at least he thoroughly cites his sources. Websites advocating for a Ketogenic diet feel just as biased and most of the time don't have half the research backing it.
- cageface 9y ago
  He backs up all his claims with extensive citations from recent, peer reviewed studies. The link between meat and heart disease, diabetes, and even cancer is very well established now. Anecdotally, keto diet did absolutely nothing for me except make me feel even worse, whereas I’ve noticed dramatic improvements in mood and health after three weeks of a purely plant based diet.
  - scottLobster 9y ago
    Does your plant-based diet include bread/carbs, and did you stick with the keto diet for more than a few days? Usually when people feel like crap (initially) on keto it's their bodies switching over from primarily burning sugar to primarily burning fat, but it subsides after a few hours/days depending on the person/diet (look up "keto flu"). Note that keto does not necessarily include meat. You'd get the same effect eating nothing but raw vegetables for a week.
    - cageface 9y ago
      I eat complex carbs like brown rice. I avoid refined carbs. I did keto for two weeks and finally had to stop because I felt worse and hated what I was eating. To be clear I was eating the kind of keto diet I usually see people endorse which is very heavy in animal fat and protein. In contrast I’ve been purely plant based for three weeks now and I’ve noticed dramatic improvements in my mood and energy levels. I’ve lost a bit of weight and I really enjoy what I’m eating. The numbness and swelling I’ve struggled with for over a year as a result of surgery for a broken leg has also massively improved, which I didn’t expect.
      - invisible 9y ago
        I've switched to a diet that is mostly plant based with small portions of meat occasionally and low carb intake. I don't agree that "plant based" is the reason you feel better but I do think not eating huge quantities of meat and carbohydrates/sugar causes your body to be a little more accommodating.
        cageface 9y ago
        The link between consumption of saturated fat and cholesterol with cardiovascular disease is extremely well established so I don't think it's a coincidence that I feel this much better after cutting them out of my diet.
        9y ago
- zz00vv 9y ago
  This is an ad hominem and quite unfair. Michael Greger states himself that he does not like the term veganism, and he also writes that it was the health benefits of a plant based diet that led him to promote that diet. To call him a "vegan animal welfare crusader" is a bit hyperbolic to say the least. From Greger's book How Not to Die he writes in the Introduction to Part 2: > From a nutrition standpoint, the reason I don’t like the terms vegetarian and vegan is that they are only defined by what you don’t eat. When I used to speak on college campuses, I would meet vegans who appeared to be living off french fries and beer. Vegan, technically, but not exactly health promoting. That’s why I prefer the term whole-food, plant-based nutrition. As far as I can discern, the best available balance of evidence suggests that the healthiest diet is one centered on unprocessed plant foods. On a day-today basis, the more whole plant foods and the fewer processed and animal products, the better. And from the Preface of How Not to Die he writes: > True, I have biases of my own to rein in. Although my original motivation was health, over the years, I’ve grown into quite the animal lover. Three cats and a dog run our household, and I’ve spent much of my professional life proudly serving the Humane Society of the United States as the charity’s public health director. So, like many people, I care about the welfare of the animals we eat, but first and foremost, I am a physician. My primary duty has always been to care for my patients, to accurately provide the best available balance of evidence.

KitDuncan 9y ago

I really hate this argument. On one hand Keto advocates cry about the grain and sugar lobby, on the other they don't even consider the massive outreach the livestock lobby has and their interest in pushing this diet. Even organic meat and animal products don't come without health risks and it comes at substantial cost to our environment.

nightski 9y ago
You don't have to eat a lot of meat on this diet. I've been on the diet for years, have read a lot of information on it (fortunately it's been used for medical purposes for over 100 years so there is plenty of material). I personally eat a few ounces a day because I enjoy it. But it could easily be left out, I'd just have to get my protein elsewhere.

brookside 9y ago

Why would organic meat be better? Link to science?

scottLobster 9y ago
In the case of Beef, grass fed beef has substantially better fat/cholesterol profile, and more micro-nutrients/antioxidants https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2891-9-10 https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2... http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/heart-disease/expert-answers/grass-fed-beef/faq-20058059 http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/heart-disease/... Granted that's a relative judgement. Too much meat, even organic meat, can be unhealthy depending on a number of factors.

shlant 9y ago

> If you have normal organic meat there is no problem at all Source? Because all of this seems to show otherwise: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23306319 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23306319 http://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j1957 http://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j1957 http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/85/2/518.full http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/85/2/518.full http://cancerpreventionresearch.aacrjournals.org/content/canprevres/4/2/177.full.pdf http://cancerpreventionresearch.aacrjournals.org/content/can... > Likely we have been eating meat from the beginning of our existance Just because we have evolved eating meat, doesn't necessarily mean it is the most optimal. Appeal to Nature. > The problem is that the anti meat lobby like peta or sugar-bread industry want us to buy more of their products What "products" is PETA selling??? I have a lot of qualms with PETA, but I have never seen them vindicated in this way... > Keto is a really good healthy diet its just that requires that you educate yourself You seem to be really invested in the diet. Maybe you have some bias?

nightski 9y ago
Look, you can be on a ketogenic diet and not eat meat at all. I eat a few ounces a day. I could easily not eat any at all and still maintain a high fat ketogenic diet, but I enjoy the flavor. I also have read plenty of studies that contradict the ones above. I'm not saying they are necessarily wrong. But I find medical statistical studies very hard to interpret because they don't control for all the factors and the data is not super reliable. Often the conclusions seem excessive given the data that is actually there.
- shlant 9y ago
  > Look, you can be on a ketogenic diet and not eat meat at all. For sure, but I doubt most people doing Keto are eating very little to no meat. > I find medical statistical studies very hard to interpret because they don't control for all the factors and the data is not super reliable Ok so you are suggesting we throw out all studies because they may or may not control for all the variables? That seems like a zero sum proposition that is a bit overkill. Of course there are some studies that are less rigorously controlled than others, but to conclude that no studies can be trusted because "medical statistical studies very hard to interpret" and "the data is not super reliable" just seems like an excuse to ignore what is very compelling evidence.