6 ms·

I'd argue that Gecko is a real WebKit alternative. It has improved quite dramatically lately, have you tried Firefox Nightly?

wodenokoto 9y ago
The problem with in its current state as a WebKit alternative is that it lacks stable api. We don't see any gecko based apps like we see WebKit based apps (electron, etc) because gecko is so tightly developed around Firefox.
- NiLSPACE 9y ago
  True, Gecko lacks a real API for embedding. Servo on the other hand has embedding in mind from the start. There is someone from the Servo team working on it: https://github.com/paulrouget/servoshell https://github.com/paulrouget/servoshell
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- FreakyT 9y ago
  I remember way before Electron there was XULRunner, and there were a few ridiculously bloated non-Mozilla apps that were based on it. Like Songbird[1] -- anyone remember that? I suppose the idea was largely ahead of its time; in 2006 computers just didn't have enough RAM/CPU to get away with running a full web browser stack for every app like we (sort of) can today. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbird_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbird_(software)
  - wodenokoto 9y ago
    Back then I was a big fan of the concept and I really enjoyed songbird. I still think that building a html+javascript package, and have the default browser run it chromeless with some expanded privileges (or near chromeless) is a great approach for cross-platform apps, sadly it doesn't seem like anyone is working seriously on such an approach.
    - StavrosK 9y ago
      > I still think [it] is a great approach for cross-platform apps You think so? I find that running a whole second OS for every process is hugely bloated and slow, and that we can do much, much better when there are already very good languages that run cross-platformly, they just need bindings to a good cross-platform UI toolkit. Unfortunately, nothing looks as good on OS X as Cocoa does.
      - wodenokoto 9y ago
        Yes. Yes I do. Look at R studio. Wonderful IDE, runs as a safari app. Having a whole extra browser and a node backend running for each app seems a waste, but using the browser that is already running as a runtime environment seems much saner. I do most of my work in the browser, I wouldn't mind if some of that had better integrated UI. I also wouldn't mind writing small, easy to produce apps that will work across systems.
        StavrosK 9y ago
        I'm not saying programs written in it aren't useful or doable, I just don't think it's a great approach. I think it's a last-resort approach, because there just isn't a better cross-platform toolkit available.
    - maxsilver 9y ago
      > I still think that building a html+javascript package, and have the default browser run it I think the thing that kills that approach is the default browser, which on Windows is IE 12 (Edge). Edge isn't actually that bad to work with these days. But almost no web developers will use that when they could ship Chromium / Electron just as easily and get the exact same browser on all three platforms. Even Microsoft's own teams will sometimes make that choice (VS Code using Electron.js and not Edge, for example)
      - WorldMaker 9y ago
        I don't think Edge is the problem: the problem is IE11 and people clutching to Windows 7 until the bitter end and whether or not to support them. You can see bits and pieces where Microsoft's teams are also experimenting with Node on ChakraCore and Electron on Edge.
  - cptskippy 9y ago
    I don think it's quite the same thing though. Songbird was a XUL app with extension support and a built in browser. Aren't Electron based apps HTML based and running on Website?
    - tmzt 9y ago
      They don't run on a website, they are static files (usually) served from a zip file.
      - cptskippy 9y ago
        Argh, sorry phone auto-corrected Webkit to Website.
- krzyk 9y ago
  That's good. I don't see a point in having an app that embeds a browser to show an app. It's like having those silly Android apps that are just a wrapper around a web version of the service. If I want to use a web version I can do it using a browser of my choosing not the one developers want.
  - charrondev 9y ago
    The browser rendering environment is only half of electron. Electron (and nw.js) provide a node.js / browser hybrid. You can use native node-modules, instead of browser-based workarounds and you have the same filesystem access a native application would have. You also have hooks into platform specific menu/dock/notifications.
agumonkey 9y ago
It is, it's just hard to track what's going on in a way. The browser saw new ideas, and rollbacks (hello ? IIRC). There's the XUL layers, Electrolysis, the actual engine. I have to admit If you clean your mind from memories of high latency Firefox GUI, it's now near chrome-fast on the UX side. Memory use is adequate if not #1. Tabs are well handled too.

wodenokoto 9y ago

The problem with in its current state as a WebKit alternative is that it lacks stable api. We don't see any gecko based apps like we see WebKit based apps (electron, etc) because gecko is so tightly developed around Firefox.

NiLSPACE 9y ago
True, Gecko lacks a real API for embedding. Servo on the other hand has embedding in mind from the start. There is someone from the Servo team working on it: https://github.com/paulrouget/servoshell https://github.com/paulrouget/servoshell
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
FreakyT 9y ago
I remember way before Electron there was XULRunner, and there were a few ridiculously bloated non-Mozilla apps that were based on it. Like Songbird[1] -- anyone remember that? I suppose the idea was largely ahead of its time; in 2006 computers just didn't have enough RAM/CPU to get away with running a full web browser stack for every app like we (sort of) can today. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbird_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbird_(software)
- wodenokoto 9y ago
  Back then I was a big fan of the concept and I really enjoyed songbird. I still think that building a html+javascript package, and have the default browser run it chromeless with some expanded privileges (or near chromeless) is a great approach for cross-platform apps, sadly it doesn't seem like anyone is working seriously on such an approach.
  - StavrosK 9y ago
    > I still think [it] is a great approach for cross-platform apps You think so? I find that running a whole second OS for every process is hugely bloated and slow, and that we can do much, much better when there are already very good languages that run cross-platformly, they just need bindings to a good cross-platform UI toolkit. Unfortunately, nothing looks as good on OS X as Cocoa does.
    - wodenokoto 9y ago
      Yes. Yes I do. Look at R studio. Wonderful IDE, runs as a safari app. Having a whole extra browser and a node backend running for each app seems a waste, but using the browser that is already running as a runtime environment seems much saner. I do most of my work in the browser, I wouldn't mind if some of that had better integrated UI. I also wouldn't mind writing small, easy to produce apps that will work across systems.
      - StavrosK 9y ago
        I'm not saying programs written in it aren't useful or doable, I just don't think it's a great approach. I think it's a last-resort approach, because there just isn't a better cross-platform toolkit available.
  - maxsilver 9y ago
    > I still think that building a html+javascript package, and have the default browser run it I think the thing that kills that approach is the default browser, which on Windows is IE 12 (Edge). Edge isn't actually that bad to work with these days. But almost no web developers will use that when they could ship Chromium / Electron just as easily and get the exact same browser on all three platforms. Even Microsoft's own teams will sometimes make that choice (VS Code using Electron.js and not Edge, for example)
    - WorldMaker 9y ago
      I don't think Edge is the problem: the problem is IE11 and people clutching to Windows 7 until the bitter end and whether or not to support them. You can see bits and pieces where Microsoft's teams are also experimenting with Node on ChakraCore and Electron on Edge.
- cptskippy 9y ago
  I don think it's quite the same thing though. Songbird was a XUL app with extension support and a built in browser. Aren't Electron based apps HTML based and running on Website?
  - tmzt 9y ago
    They don't run on a website, they are static files (usually) served from a zip file.
    - cptskippy 9y ago
      Argh, sorry phone auto-corrected Webkit to Website.
krzyk 9y ago
That's good. I don't see a point in having an app that embeds a browser to show an app. It's like having those silly Android apps that are just a wrapper around a web version of the service. If I want to use a web version I can do it using a browser of my choosing not the one developers want.
- charrondev 9y ago
  The browser rendering environment is only half of electron. Electron (and nw.js) provide a node.js / browser hybrid. You can use native node-modules, instead of browser-based workarounds and you have the same filesystem access a native application would have. You also have hooks into platform specific menu/dock/notifications.

agumonkey 9y ago

It is, it's just hard to track what's going on in a way. The browser saw new ideas, and rollbacks (hello ? IIRC). There's the XUL layers, Electrolysis, the actual engine. I have to admit If you clean your mind from memories of high latency Firefox GUI, it's now near chrome-fast on the UX side. Memory use is adequate if not #1. Tabs are well handled too.