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Art is not putting up data until it brings up something "cool". It's the expression of mind. Miyazaki has a clear expression about the subject https://www.youtu

by pawy 9y ago

Art is not putting up data until it brings up something "cool". It's the expression of mind. Miyazaki has a clear expression about the subject https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfxlgHBaxEU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfxlgHBaxEU and I'm really deeply sadden that people doesn't get this before hand. Try expressing feelings and stop using that word that has absolutely nothing to do with machine learning. The very very very basic Idea of machine learning is at opposite with art. These things have nothing to do together.

dougeck 9y ago
We think of these models as being ways to extend artistic expression... like guitar pedal or cameras or drum machines. Perhaps ML will give rise to something new and aesthetically interesting in this direction.
- pawy 9y ago
  You are building a "smarter" arpegiator. If you really want to build a tool used by producers then it would be required to be a VST in the first place. But then I really doubt (as an amateur composer) than any artist could get anywhere with this. How can I transmit my feelings trough a bunch of data i've no control over ?
  - kastnerkyle 9y ago
    You mean something like this? [0] As far as I know from the mailing list, they are always working on more tools for integration so musicians can use them in different environments and different ways. As an amateur composer as well, I have found uses for these types of models even without plugins / with "data I have no control over" for small flashes of interesting motifs/progressions that I rework, modify, and expand on my own. Inspiration comes in many forms. [0] https://github.com/tensorflow/magenta-demos/tree/master/ai-jam-ableton https://github.com/tensorflow/magenta-demos/tree/master/ai-j...
    - pawy 9y ago
      Depending on the usage you make, there are some cool applications. But then as you said you rework the material anyway to create your own thing. At best it can inspire. edit : thus the title should have been "rearranging sound with machine learning" ; it's not music nor art.
ejfox 9y ago
Art- and in fact, most creative endeavors often DO involve creating many things until you discover something "cool". With my personal experiments with generative art, I think of the machine almost as a work assistant. I have a rough idea of what I'm going for, and the ways to attempt it, and I teach that to my computer using code. But then I go away from the computer and out into the world and drink coffee, sketch in my notebook, and in the meantime my computerized assistant is back home working on draft after draft of my latest piece of art. I come home and I see what he's done, and most of it isn't great, but occasionally there is a gem! I look at what he did for that gem and then encourage him to do more of that, and then go back out into the world. I highly disagree that machine learning is the opposite of art. If you go to any traditional artist's studio you will often find notebooks filled with discarded sketches and ideas. Paintings with color combinations or techniques that weren't ideal. This is almost exactly the same process. And I would argue that process is exactly what art is.
- pawy 9y ago
  "most creative endeavors often do involve CREATING many things" ; not generating them. You've "selected" something you liked. You are no artist and should not call your self like that. If you do, you will never inspire "simple" people. At least if you do it would become the MacDonald of art. Do nothing, sit and say to the bot if it fits you or not. You're even worse than a DJ. The DJ actually works his selection and works his transitions. Sketches have been written out of artist mind. Not by some selection that fits you or not. Art is work.
  - ejfox 9y ago
    What is the difference between creation and generation? What is the difference between me selecting the specific frame made by a generative algorithm and photographer picking a specific moment in time to capture a frame? What's the difference between me using a generative algorithm and Michelangelo using assistants to paint the Sistine Chapel?
    - TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
blacksmith_tb 9y ago
I am trying to understand your strong negative reaction as charitably as I can. Would it be fair say that for you because there was no mind (and also no feelings) associated with it, something isn't art? I am not saying I think it's good art, but there are clearly many pieces of art (say found art, or lots of conceptual art) that doesn't involve those - and while I may not like it, but it is generally accepted to be art.
spot 9y ago
"[Art is] the expression of mind." Right. Now, my mind is full of thoughts and emotions about ML. And I use ML to make some videos that express my thoughts. And you judge my work and say it's not art? Really I profoundly disagree. Saying something is "not art" is normally a tough argument to make. To say it about a whole category of practice is nearly impossible.
stevehiehn 9y ago
I'm deeply saddened that people think there even is a clear universal definition for the word Art.
hashmal 9y ago
In a way I agree: machine learning should not (try to) replace human art. However, I think it has its place if it's part of the artistic process. Many artists put the emphasis not on the end product, but on the process itself. We can perfectly imagine an artist creating an entire collection using AI, find something wicked in it and expose it as a criticism of our times. (sounds hipster yeah… I'm not an artist.)

by pawy 9y ago

dougeck 9y ago

We think of these models as being ways to extend artistic expression... like guitar pedal or cameras or drum machines. Perhaps ML will give rise to something new and aesthetically interesting in this direction.

pawy 9y ago
You are building a "smarter" arpegiator. If you really want to build a tool used by producers then it would be required to be a VST in the first place. But then I really doubt (as an amateur composer) than any artist could get anywhere with this. How can I transmit my feelings trough a bunch of data i've no control over ?
- kastnerkyle 9y ago
  You mean something like this? [0] As far as I know from the mailing list, they are always working on more tools for integration so musicians can use them in different environments and different ways. As an amateur composer as well, I have found uses for these types of models even without plugins / with "data I have no control over" for small flashes of interesting motifs/progressions that I rework, modify, and expand on my own. Inspiration comes in many forms. [0] https://github.com/tensorflow/magenta-demos/tree/master/ai-jam-ableton https://github.com/tensorflow/magenta-demos/tree/master/ai-j...
  - pawy 9y ago
    Depending on the usage you make, there are some cool applications. But then as you said you rework the material anyway to create your own thing. At best it can inspire. edit : thus the title should have been "rearranging sound with machine learning" ; it's not music nor art.

ejfox 9y ago

Art- and in fact, most creative endeavors often DO involve creating many things until you discover something "cool". With my personal experiments with generative art, I think of the machine almost as a work assistant. I have a rough idea of what I'm going for, and the ways to attempt it, and I teach that to my computer using code. But then I go away from the computer and out into the world and drink coffee, sketch in my notebook, and in the meantime my computerized assistant is back home working on draft after draft of my latest piece of art. I come home and I see what he's done, and most of it isn't great, but occasionally there is a gem! I look at what he did for that gem and then encourage him to do more of that, and then go back out into the world. I highly disagree that machine learning is the opposite of art. If you go to any traditional artist's studio you will often find notebooks filled with discarded sketches and ideas. Paintings with color combinations or techniques that weren't ideal. This is almost exactly the same process. And I would argue that process is exactly what art is.

pawy 9y ago
"most creative endeavors often do involve CREATING many things" ; not generating them. You've "selected" something you liked. You are no artist and should not call your self like that. If you do, you will never inspire "simple" people. At least if you do it would become the MacDonald of art. Do nothing, sit and say to the bot if it fits you or not. You're even worse than a DJ. The DJ actually works his selection and works his transitions. Sketches have been written out of artist mind. Not by some selection that fits you or not. Art is work.
- ejfox 9y ago
  What is the difference between creation and generation? What is the difference between me selecting the specific frame made by a generative algorithm and photographer picking a specific moment in time to capture a frame? What's the difference between me using a generative algorithm and Michelangelo using assistants to paint the Sistine Chapel?
  - TheOtherHobbes 9y ago

blacksmith_tb 9y ago

I am trying to understand your strong negative reaction as charitably as I can. Would it be fair say that for you because there was no mind (and also no feelings) associated with it, something isn't art? I am not saying I think it's good art, but there are clearly many pieces of art (say found art, or lots of conceptual art) that doesn't involve those - and while I may not like it, but it is generally accepted to be art.

spot 9y ago

"[Art is] the expression of mind." Right. Now, my mind is full of thoughts and emotions about ML. And I use ML to make some videos that express my thoughts. And you judge my work and say it's not art? Really I profoundly disagree. Saying something is "not art" is normally a tough argument to make. To say it about a whole category of practice is nearly impossible.

stevehiehn 9y ago

I'm deeply saddened that people think there even is a clear universal definition for the word Art.

hashmal 9y ago

In a way I agree: machine learning should not (try to) replace human art. However, I think it has its place if it's part of the artistic process. Many artists put the emphasis not on the end product, but on the process itself. We can perfectly imagine an artist creating an entire collection using AI, find something wicked in it and expose it as a criticism of our times. (sounds hipster yeah… I'm not an artist.)