6 ms·

Thank you, eugh, it's incredibly annoying, like people miss a hundred year history lesson and want to repeat the mistakes of the past here. Even the bottom 20%

Thank you, eugh, it's incredibly annoying, like people miss a hundred year history lesson and want to repeat the mistakes of the past here. Even the bottom 20% that everyone is so concerned about in the western world are better off than any time in history - heck, I have no qualms saying I'd rather be bottom 20% today than top 1% just 200 years ago. That is the level of productivity we've had, and primarily thanks to our economic system. Could it use some tweaks? Sure, if you want to advocate free healthcare or college, go for it, but the main concepts are still quite good.

ivanbakel 9y ago
Better is not necessarily good enough. Why would people not want a system which furthers their quality of life even more? It's not at all convincing to suggest that you shouldn't complain since things have improved somewhat under capitalism.
- problems 9y ago
  Things have improved immensely, more than any other time in history under capitalism. And we've watched other systems crash and burn. We don't need to experience it for ourselves, thanks.
  - ivanbakel 9y ago
    We've also witnessed capitalist systems fail drastically, and other systems succeed impressively. There is little historical comparison for what you quote as capitalism's success - nobody performed a double-blind trial to see if the industrial revolution and colonialism improved quality of life in non-capitalist systems.
    - problems 9y ago
      > We've also witnessed capitalist systems fail drastically, and other systems succeed impressively. Please, show me one country not rooted in capitalism which has "succeeded impressively" in recent decades.
      - ivanbakel 9y ago
        Cuba. Despite a continuing embargo from one of the largest economies on the planet, and the collapse of its greatest allies over two decades ago, socialism in Cuba has eradicated homelessness and illiteracy, produced one of the best internationally-recognised healthcare systems on the planet. If we lift the restrictions of "a few decades", you'd find that the USSR transformed a feudalist, barely-electrified nation into America's greatest opponent on the world stage, with a stake in the space race, in less than half a century.
        problems 9y ago
        Cuba is comparatively an incredibly poor nation that has missed many advancements of modern society in recent decades. Wages are dirt low, access to the internet is low, and from what I gather, access to modern anything in general is challenging. There are no great advancements coming out of Cuba. I don't consider that a success, I consider that a failure. I don't want to stop progressing or move backwards into a deep maintenance mode as Cuba has. And that's just the economic side of things.
        ivanbakel 9y ago
        Are great advancements the measurement of good? Is progress for the sake of progress so great? To me, it's a question of the proverbial slaves building the pyramids: it's easy to insist that society should work for the improvement of technology if your quality of life is already secured by the people below you on the ladder. You may not want to stop progressing, but ask Americans without healthcare coverage whether they would prefer government money going to research or to providing for their needs, and many of them will disagree with you.
        Sommersonn 9y ago
        Ever been to Cuba? They're in deep poverty and some of their 'homes' are not better than cardboard boxes. And USSR never managed to turn to US greatest opponent, despite killing millions trying.
pnutjam 9y ago
What good are things when you are powerless and feel forgotten? You comparison is poor.
- problems 9y ago
  Quite a bit. I can live a much better life with some basic things in our modern society - modern medicine, a vehicle, a computer, easy access to good food for only a small part of my salary. "Feeling powerless and forgotten" is something that just doesn't matter compared to those in my opinion.
  - ionised 9y ago
    I'm guessing you've never struggled financially ever in your life.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - problems 9y ago
      I'm guessing you're lazy and expect society to provide everything to you on a silver platter. Guesses don't help anyone and add nothing to the discussion.
      - ionised 9y ago
        modern medicine, a vehicle, a computer, easy access to good food for only a small part of my salary. Got some news for you. You are not representative of the people that the system failing. These things are luxuries to that demographic. feeling powerless and forgotten" is something that just doesn't matter compared to those in my opinion. Neither does a shitty, elitist attitude born of ignorance of the people you are attacking without even attempting to understand them.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
dang 9y ago
This thread was full of generic ideological comments but you and another user took it into ideological flamewar, which is something we definitely don't want on HN. Please don't do this again, and especially please don't cross into being uncivil, as you both did. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14820194 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14820194 and marked it off-topic.

ivanbakel 9y ago

Better is not necessarily good enough. Why would people not want a system which furthers their quality of life even more? It's not at all convincing to suggest that you shouldn't complain since things have improved somewhat under capitalism.

problems 9y ago
Things have improved immensely, more than any other time in history under capitalism. And we've watched other systems crash and burn. We don't need to experience it for ourselves, thanks.
- ivanbakel 9y ago
  We've also witnessed capitalist systems fail drastically, and other systems succeed impressively. There is little historical comparison for what you quote as capitalism's success - nobody performed a double-blind trial to see if the industrial revolution and colonialism improved quality of life in non-capitalist systems.
  - problems 9y ago
    > We've also witnessed capitalist systems fail drastically, and other systems succeed impressively. Please, show me one country not rooted in capitalism which has "succeeded impressively" in recent decades.
    - ivanbakel 9y ago
      Cuba. Despite a continuing embargo from one of the largest economies on the planet, and the collapse of its greatest allies over two decades ago, socialism in Cuba has eradicated homelessness and illiteracy, produced one of the best internationally-recognised healthcare systems on the planet. If we lift the restrictions of "a few decades", you'd find that the USSR transformed a feudalist, barely-electrified nation into America's greatest opponent on the world stage, with a stake in the space race, in less than half a century.
      - problems 9y ago
        Cuba is comparatively an incredibly poor nation that has missed many advancements of modern society in recent decades. Wages are dirt low, access to the internet is low, and from what I gather, access to modern anything in general is challenging. There are no great advancements coming out of Cuba. I don't consider that a success, I consider that a failure. I don't want to stop progressing or move backwards into a deep maintenance mode as Cuba has. And that's just the economic side of things.
        ivanbakel 9y ago
        Are great advancements the measurement of good? Is progress for the sake of progress so great? To me, it's a question of the proverbial slaves building the pyramids: it's easy to insist that society should work for the improvement of technology if your quality of life is already secured by the people below you on the ladder. You may not want to stop progressing, but ask Americans without healthcare coverage whether they would prefer government money going to research or to providing for their needs, and many of them will disagree with you.
      - Sommersonn 9y ago
        Ever been to Cuba? They're in deep poverty and some of their 'homes' are not better than cardboard boxes. And USSR never managed to turn to US greatest opponent, despite killing millions trying.

pnutjam 9y ago

What good are things when you are powerless and feel forgotten? You comparison is poor.

problems 9y ago
Quite a bit. I can live a much better life with some basic things in our modern society - modern medicine, a vehicle, a computer, easy access to good food for only a small part of my salary. "Feeling powerless and forgotten" is something that just doesn't matter compared to those in my opinion.
- ionised 9y ago
  I'm guessing you've never struggled financially ever in your life.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - problems 9y ago
    I'm guessing you're lazy and expect society to provide everything to you on a silver platter. Guesses don't help anyone and add nothing to the discussion.
    - ionised 9y ago
      modern medicine, a vehicle, a computer, easy access to good food for only a small part of my salary. Got some news for you. You are not representative of the people that the system failing. These things are luxuries to that demographic. feeling powerless and forgotten" is something that just doesn't matter compared to those in my opinion. Neither does a shitty, elitist attitude born of ignorance of the people you are attacking without even attempting to understand them.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]

dang 9y ago

This thread was full of generic ideological comments but you and another user took it into ideological flamewar, which is something we definitely don't want on HN. Please don't do this again, and especially please don't cross into being uncivil, as you both did. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14820194 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14820194 and marked it off-topic.