5 ms·

Good. The idea and intention behind bootcamps is a good one but the current implementation is suspiciously like university of phoenix.

vosper 9y ago
I don't know much about University of Phoenix, but I've hired a couple of bootcamp graduates, found through the bootcamp recruiting events. They were both pretty inexperienced, but motivated and smart people. As good as any junior programmers I've hired. In the right circumstances I'd hire them again. It's diamonds-in-the-rough from a recruiting standpoint, but you get to vet a lot of people very quickly (it was exhausting) and if there's one thing you can be sure of, it's that their motivated (good bootcamps are not cheap, and they're hard work). How things worked out for the rest of the graduates I don't know... Both people I hired had some experience before bootcamp
- nobleach 9y ago
  Diamonds in the rough is exactly how I'd describe it. I've sifted through many resumes from DevMountain graduates (and not surprisingly their instructors). What it looked like was one big homogeny of "here's how you create a github account, here's how you commit and push the Angular exercises we've been working on". Almost all were identical resumes. Regardless, the ones that we've hired seemed to do fine.
justin 9y ago
My youngest brother went through Dev Bootcamp in 2012. He had graduated from a top 30 university but wasn't able to find a great job and had been doing some part time, low skill work. DBC literally changed his life. Post graduation he immediately got a job at a dev shop as a programmer, and now 5 years later is a great developer gainfully employed in Silicon Valley. Not sure why you would shit on the grave of a program that has done a lot of good for its graduates.
- arikr 9y ago
  I'm sure DBC has many good outcomes, but it's a fair comment.
- dkarapetyan 9y ago
  Trouble with anecdotes is that it is not data. I'm happy for your brother but that still doesn't change the fact that most bootcamps are overpromising and underdelivering on their promises of gainful employment. It's simply not possible to learn to program in bootcamp time frames. I'm certain if we saw actual numbers it would not be a pretty picture. For the truly motivated it is much better to go to recurse.com or join a learning Meetup. Get a day job to pay the bills and learn at your own pace. Programming is not going anywhere even with all the fancy AI startups. In fact if I was just starting out I'd just learn Python and R.
  - austenallred 9y ago
    How do you know that? From anecdotes? :)
  - justin 9y ago
    Love your use of speculation to counter my anecdotal data. Incredibly intellectually dishonest. It is possible to learn enough programming to within 10 weeks to get a job programming. Of course they won't be the best programmers at that point. But I've hired bootcamp grads and have had other friends go through, and they have been positive outcomes. Yes, that is anecdotal data, but it categorically proves false that "it's simply not possible to learn to program in bootcamp time frames."
    - toomanyrichies 9y ago
      +1 to justin's comments. It's true that an anecdote isn't a complete data set, but it is one data point. Further, it's one more data point than the pure speculation that dkarapetyan's comment provides. Let me add a 2nd data point- as a 2013 DBC grad, I would still be in my previous career (completely unrelated to engineering) if I hadn't attended DBC. My instructors and classmates were instrumental in helping me get out of a job I hated and into one I love. It wasn't a perfect experience, but it was a life-changing one, and I'd do it again in a heartbeat. > For the truly motivated it is much better to go to recurse.com or join a learning Meetup. Speaking of data, care to provide any which supports this opinion? > most bootcamps are overpromising and underdelivering on their promises of gainful employment. You generalize about an entire industry without providing evidence, and then you use that generalization to denigrate a specific company within that industry which may or may not buck a trend. A trend which you haven't even proven exists, btw. Nice.
ayyjohn 9y ago
I disagree. I'm a graduate of App Academy and I can't recommend their program highly enough. Ironically, my impression of it has grown since finishing. They asked us to review them right before graduation and I gave them a pretty mediocre review. It wasn't until I entered the job search and realized how well they actually prepared us, and set us on track to succeed and learn that I gained full appreciation for it. You can complain about any number of things, from the teachers all being previous students, to a weird paper thin attempt at an inclusive environment, but I wouldn't call it scammy like University of Phoenix. I don't regret going there for a second. I would say that from a personal level I was challenged more at App Academy than I was in college when I got my degree in Engineering. That could be because I actually enjoyed web dev, but either way, I disagree with that comparison.
arikr 9y ago
Not sure why you were downvoted, it's a good point. Many current bootcamps were duping students into promises of jobs, and making them pay large tuition fees up front. Very similar to what the scam universities are known to do - promise how the degree will help someone get a job, and then charge them large fees. A friend of mine did DBC, and my sense was that many of their friends in the program struggled for a long time to get jobs. Also, the founders I know stopped looking at some bootcamp grads, as they found them to be very low quality (this was noted to me back in 2014, may have changed).
- busterarm 9y ago
  21 of the 23 people in my App Academy cohort got jobs. 18 of them within like 3 months. The two that struggled had severe social issues holding them back. We had 5 dropouts who got full refunds. 2+ years on and all of us are still working in the industry. It really does depend on the bootcamp. How valuable a bootcamp is depends on its style and the individual. Even though I had a positive (but probably unnecessary) experience, I'm not exempt from feeling like they're a bit scammy sometimes. In my case, they give you a curriculum of the minimum that you need to get a job (really) and some serious pressure to get it done and get that job. Almost anyone who actually gets through it is going to be an asset to most companies that don't need an extremely diverse or exceptional skill set. For roles I'm looking to hire, would I hire a fresh bootcamp grad? No. Would I hire one with two years experience? You bet your ass.
commandertso 9y ago
I'm not sure I agree. The "system" right now leaves a lot of room for both good and bad camps. It's unregulated, but isn't in and of itself like University of Phoenix.
jnmandal 9y ago
This is probably one of the few that wasn't doing sketchy stuff like that so I'm not sure I would say it's "good". If anything this shows the "university of Phoenix" model is the only viable one.
driverdan 9y ago
I downvoted you because you're generalizing and have clearly not researched the topic. As a hiring manager I reviewed many bootcamp programs and interviewed grads. DBC was one of the best and produced consistently good junior candidates. There are a lot of crappy ones but DBC wasn't one of them.

vosper 9y ago

I don't know much about University of Phoenix, but I've hired a couple of bootcamp graduates, found through the bootcamp recruiting events. They were both pretty inexperienced, but motivated and smart people. As good as any junior programmers I've hired. In the right circumstances I'd hire them again. It's diamonds-in-the-rough from a recruiting standpoint, but you get to vet a lot of people very quickly (it was exhausting) and if there's one thing you can be sure of, it's that their motivated (good bootcamps are not cheap, and they're hard work). How things worked out for the rest of the graduates I don't know... Both people I hired had some experience before bootcamp

nobleach 9y ago
Diamonds in the rough is exactly how I'd describe it. I've sifted through many resumes from DevMountain graduates (and not surprisingly their instructors). What it looked like was one big homogeny of "here's how you create a github account, here's how you commit and push the Angular exercises we've been working on". Almost all were identical resumes. Regardless, the ones that we've hired seemed to do fine.

justin 9y ago

My youngest brother went through Dev Bootcamp in 2012. He had graduated from a top 30 university but wasn't able to find a great job and had been doing some part time, low skill work. DBC literally changed his life. Post graduation he immediately got a job at a dev shop as a programmer, and now 5 years later is a great developer gainfully employed in Silicon Valley. Not sure why you would shit on the grave of a program that has done a lot of good for its graduates.

arikr 9y ago
I'm sure DBC has many good outcomes, but it's a fair comment.
dkarapetyan 9y ago
Trouble with anecdotes is that it is not data. I'm happy for your brother but that still doesn't change the fact that most bootcamps are overpromising and underdelivering on their promises of gainful employment. It's simply not possible to learn to program in bootcamp time frames. I'm certain if we saw actual numbers it would not be a pretty picture. For the truly motivated it is much better to go to recurse.com or join a learning Meetup. Get a day job to pay the bills and learn at your own pace. Programming is not going anywhere even with all the fancy AI startups. In fact if I was just starting out I'd just learn Python and R.
- austenallred 9y ago
  How do you know that? From anecdotes? :)
- justin 9y ago
  Love your use of speculation to counter my anecdotal data. Incredibly intellectually dishonest. It is possible to learn enough programming to within 10 weeks to get a job programming. Of course they won't be the best programmers at that point. But I've hired bootcamp grads and have had other friends go through, and they have been positive outcomes. Yes, that is anecdotal data, but it categorically proves false that "it's simply not possible to learn to program in bootcamp time frames."
  - toomanyrichies 9y ago
    +1 to justin's comments. It's true that an anecdote isn't a complete data set, but it is one data point. Further, it's one more data point than the pure speculation that dkarapetyan's comment provides. Let me add a 2nd data point- as a 2013 DBC grad, I would still be in my previous career (completely unrelated to engineering) if I hadn't attended DBC. My instructors and classmates were instrumental in helping me get out of a job I hated and into one I love. It wasn't a perfect experience, but it was a life-changing one, and I'd do it again in a heartbeat. > For the truly motivated it is much better to go to recurse.com or join a learning Meetup. Speaking of data, care to provide any which supports this opinion? > most bootcamps are overpromising and underdelivering on their promises of gainful employment. You generalize about an entire industry without providing evidence, and then you use that generalization to denigrate a specific company within that industry which may or may not buck a trend. A trend which you haven't even proven exists, btw. Nice.

ayyjohn 9y ago

I disagree. I'm a graduate of App Academy and I can't recommend their program highly enough. Ironically, my impression of it has grown since finishing. They asked us to review them right before graduation and I gave them a pretty mediocre review. It wasn't until I entered the job search and realized how well they actually prepared us, and set us on track to succeed and learn that I gained full appreciation for it. You can complain about any number of things, from the teachers all being previous students, to a weird paper thin attempt at an inclusive environment, but I wouldn't call it scammy like University of Phoenix. I don't regret going there for a second. I would say that from a personal level I was challenged more at App Academy than I was in college when I got my degree in Engineering. That could be because I actually enjoyed web dev, but either way, I disagree with that comparison.

arikr 9y ago

Not sure why you were downvoted, it's a good point. Many current bootcamps were duping students into promises of jobs, and making them pay large tuition fees up front. Very similar to what the scam universities are known to do - promise how the degree will help someone get a job, and then charge them large fees. A friend of mine did DBC, and my sense was that many of their friends in the program struggled for a long time to get jobs. Also, the founders I know stopped looking at some bootcamp grads, as they found them to be very low quality (this was noted to me back in 2014, may have changed).

busterarm 9y ago
21 of the 23 people in my App Academy cohort got jobs. 18 of them within like 3 months. The two that struggled had severe social issues holding them back. We had 5 dropouts who got full refunds. 2+ years on and all of us are still working in the industry. It really does depend on the bootcamp. How valuable a bootcamp is depends on its style and the individual. Even though I had a positive (but probably unnecessary) experience, I'm not exempt from feeling like they're a bit scammy sometimes. In my case, they give you a curriculum of the minimum that you need to get a job (really) and some serious pressure to get it done and get that job. Almost anyone who actually gets through it is going to be an asset to most companies that don't need an extremely diverse or exceptional skill set. For roles I'm looking to hire, would I hire a fresh bootcamp grad? No. Would I hire one with two years experience? You bet your ass.

commandertso 9y ago

I'm not sure I agree. The "system" right now leaves a lot of room for both good and bad camps. It's unregulated, but isn't in and of itself like University of Phoenix.

jnmandal 9y ago

This is probably one of the few that wasn't doing sketchy stuff like that so I'm not sure I would say it's "good". If anything this shows the "university of Phoenix" model is the only viable one.

driverdan 9y ago

I downvoted you because you're generalizing and have clearly not researched the topic. As a hiring manager I reviewed many bootcamp programs and interviewed grads. DBC was one of the best and produced consistently good junior candidates. There are a lot of crappy ones but DBC wasn't one of them.