7 ms·

Why is the assumption that replacing whites with Hispanics is good for the country? Seriously.

by xname2 9y ago

lubujackson 9y ago
I will respond seriously. Firsf of all, it has nothing to do with "replacing" and everything to do with "accepting them also". Despite rose-colored glasses, America has a long tradition of despising every wave of immigrants that has come to the country. From the "dumb Pollacks" and the "dirty Italians" to the "lazy Hispanics" and "terrorist Muslims", Americans have always looked at immigration with fondness from afar and revulsion up close. Over time, that "otherness" has always baked itself into the fabric of our country over a couple generations, but there are some particular challenges for this wave. Mainly skin color and strong religious differences (for Muslims). The whole "Spanish language everywhere!" problem is generational. First wave Italians didn't speak English either, but their children did. So I think the anti-immigration vibe is nothing new and part of the process. Liberals might be making things harder by pushing for cultural preservation/independence rather than (through indifference) encouraging assimilation. I don't think supporting different cultures living side by side ever works out long term. If we either side can stop being so extreme in their approach, maybe we can continue our national process of assimilation and (begrudgedly) open arms to immigrants.
- tptacek 9y ago
  We actively preserve Irish, Italian, and Polish culture. We have parades for them. We have sections of cities dominated by them, with language-specific signage. How is this different from what Latinos and Middle-Eastern Muslims are asking for? There is nothing in American anything like the segregation North African Muslim immigrants face in Europe, even in the densest Muslim communities. That's what "independence" looks like. What are we so afraid of here?
- xname2 9y ago
  When I said "replacing", I meant the proportion, i.e. majority/ minority change, as the article suggested. I think you understated the similarities between Americans and Irishs / Italians, and understated the differences between Americans and Hispanics / Muslims. Not sure whether you did this intentionally, but it is so obvious that Americans / Irishs / Italians are part of western culture, they have differences, but they belong to one big group. On the other hand, Southern American / Middle East belong to non-western culture. The latter is even worse, it is anti-western culture. When you look at the countries, US / UK / EU countries are similar, but Southern America countries are different from US / UK / EU countries, and Middle East countries are extremely different. Did you intentionally blind yourself? Also, we lived in a different time with two important changes: 1. welfare state. 2. far-left ideology (multiculturalism, post-modernism, etc.) becomes norm
  - tptacek 9y ago
    What shared heritage do the Irish and Italians have that the Irish don't also share with the (overwhelmingly Catholic) Mexicans? They don't eat the same food. They don't speak the same language (in a linguistic sense, Mexicans have more kinship with most of Europe than the Irish, who preserve a Gaelic tradition as well). They don't listen to the same music. They don't live in the same places. They don't grow up hearing the same stories --- outside of the biblical stories that they share with the Mexicans. They don't have the same kinds of governments. Apart from a shared complexion --- a complexion, by the way, that we used to dispute was "white" in the case of Italians --- what ties a Irishman to an Italian?
    - xname2 9y ago
      Are you trying to tell me "western culture" or "western civilization" is a fake concept? If you don't see Ireland and Italian belongs to one group, and Mexico belongs to another, I don't see how we can communicate. Our worldview is just too different.
      - tptacek 9y ago
        I feel like the questions I just posed left you a whole lot of room to rebut me specifically. Can you do so?
        xname2 9y ago
        You want me to tell you what is western culture ?
        tptacek 9y ago
        As I said above, I would like you to spell out what elements of culture Italians share with Irishmen, but not with Mexicans.
        xname2 9y ago
tptacek 9y ago
Start with the fact that "white" doesn't mean what you think it does. It's only been in the last 100 years that Irish and Italians have been assimilated into "whiteness". "White" used to mean something narrow, and evolved, as the Irish, Italians, Polish, and Jews made common cause with the Germans and English and Scottish, to mean "not black or Latino". In those terms, talking about the offsetting "whiteness" with Latinos takes on a more sinister meaning --- albeit one I'm sure most of us never consciously intend. What it really means is "why can't we just keep keeping disfavored ethnicities out?".

Why is the assumption that replacing whites with Hispanics is good for the country? Seriously.

by xname2 9y ago

Why is the assumption that replacing whites with Hispanics is good for the country? Seriously.

I will respond seriously. Firsf of all, it has nothing to do with "replacing" and everything to do with "accepting them also". Despite rose-colored glasses, America has a long tradition of despising every wave of immigrants that has come to the country. From the "dumb Pollacks" and the "dirty Italians" to the "lazy Hispanics" and "terrorist Muslims", Americans have always looked at immigration with fondness from afar and revulsion up close. Over time, that "otherness" has always baked itself into the fabric of our country over a couple generations, but there are some particular challenges for this wave. Mainly skin color and strong religious differences (for Muslims). The whole "Spanish language everywhere!" problem is generational. First wave Italians didn't speak English either, but their children did. So I think the anti-immigration vibe is nothing new and part of the process. Liberals might be making things harder by pushing for cultural preservation/independence rather than (through indifference) encouraging assimilation. I don't think supporting different cultures living side by side ever works out long term. If we either side can stop being so extreme in their approach, maybe we can continue our national process of assimilation and (begrudgedly) open arms to immigrants.

tptacek 9y ago
We actively preserve Irish, Italian, and Polish culture. We have parades for them. We have sections of cities dominated by them, with language-specific signage. How is this different from what Latinos and Middle-Eastern Muslims are asking for? There is nothing in American anything like the segregation North African Muslim immigrants face in Europe, even in the densest Muslim communities. That's what "independence" looks like. What are we so afraid of here?
xname2 9y ago
When I said "replacing", I meant the proportion, i.e. majority/ minority change, as the article suggested. I think you understated the similarities between Americans and Irishs / Italians, and understated the differences between Americans and Hispanics / Muslims. Not sure whether you did this intentionally, but it is so obvious that Americans / Irishs / Italians are part of western culture, they have differences, but they belong to one big group. On the other hand, Southern American / Middle East belong to non-western culture. The latter is even worse, it is anti-western culture. When you look at the countries, US / UK / EU countries are similar, but Southern America countries are different from US / UK / EU countries, and Middle East countries are extremely different. Did you intentionally blind yourself? Also, we lived in a different time with two important changes: 1. welfare state. 2. far-left ideology (multiculturalism, post-modernism, etc.) becomes norm
- tptacek 9y ago
  What shared heritage do the Irish and Italians have that the Irish don't also share with the (overwhelmingly Catholic) Mexicans? They don't eat the same food. They don't speak the same language (in a linguistic sense, Mexicans have more kinship with most of Europe than the Irish, who preserve a Gaelic tradition as well). They don't listen to the same music. They don't live in the same places. They don't grow up hearing the same stories --- outside of the biblical stories that they share with the Mexicans. They don't have the same kinds of governments. Apart from a shared complexion --- a complexion, by the way, that we used to dispute was "white" in the case of Italians --- what ties a Irishman to an Italian?
  - xname2 9y ago
    Are you trying to tell me "western culture" or "western civilization" is a fake concept? If you don't see Ireland and Italian belongs to one group, and Mexico belongs to another, I don't see how we can communicate. Our worldview is just too different.
    - tptacek 9y ago
      I feel like the questions I just posed left you a whole lot of room to rebut me specifically. Can you do so?
      - xname2 9y ago
        You want me to tell you what is western culture ?
        tptacek 9y ago
        As I said above, I would like you to spell out what elements of culture Italians share with Irishmen, but not with Mexicans.
        xname2 9y ago

tptacek 9y ago

Start with the fact that "white" doesn't mean what you think it does. It's only been in the last 100 years that Irish and Italians have been assimilated into "whiteness". "White" used to mean something narrow, and evolved, as the Irish, Italians, Polish, and Jews made common cause with the Germans and English and Scottish, to mean "not black or Latino". In those terms, talking about the offsetting "whiteness" with Latinos takes on a more sinister meaning --- albeit one I'm sure most of us never consciously intend. What it really means is "why can't we just keep keeping disfavored ethnicities out?".