5 ms·

This thread is great. Whenever H-1B threads come up on HN, I prepare for the onslaught of what can only be described as hatred. It's the view of many people on

by Velox 9y ago

This thread is great. Whenever H-1B threads come up on HN, I prepare for the onslaught of what can only be described as hatred. It's the view of many people on this site that all H-1B holders are "cheaters" of the system, and they don't deserve to get a job in the US. As a former H-1B holder, the threads always made me feel guilty, and feel bad about wanting to work for a well regarded, successful company. It's nice, and refreshing, to see that it's not the view of everyone, and that H-1B holders are equals and deserve the same rights as everyone else.

yardie 9y ago
You're confusing this site with Slashdot.I don't think any HNers believe that all H1-B holders see cheaters. We do realize the H1-B scheme is relatively easy to cheat. I have seen both sides to this. I've worked with brilliant developers on H1-B visas who were brought in as the system intended. I've also seen lots of job postings that were tailored to meet the requirements of a H1-B position, i.e. Poorly formatted, unintelligible, word salad with impossible requirements. Disneyland firing their IT staff and replacing all of them with an exclusive H1-B outsourcer raised all kinds of alarms. It was stories like these that made the government scrutinize those visa schemes further. Glad to see people going to jail for it.
Amezarak 9y ago
I don't think I, or most other people who are against the H1B visa system, have anything against H-1B holders themselves. They're obviously everyday people who are doing what's right for themselves and taking a big risk that generally pays off pretty well for them. If I was in their place, I hope I would have the cojones to do the same thing. Picking up and moving to another country is a big deal. What I have a problem with is the companies who employ them. The intent of the H1-B visa is for companies to be able to hire workers with skills they can't hire for in America. The reality is that 99% of H1-B programmers are hired because they're cheaper or some other anti-labor reason. There is not a shortage of programmers in the US - I'll grant there could be in Silicon Valley or California - these companies are not looking very hard for programmers, and they're more willing to get someone from a foreign country than pay for relocation for someone from say, Iowa, or to open an office there. So, frankly, I see virtually every tech company hiring H1-Bs as committing immigration fraud in order to screw over people like me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1b#No_labor_shortages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1b#No_labor_shortages - basically sums it up. Unlike other people in this thread, I don't give a fig for free markets, except to the extent they make people's lives better, which they do have a decent track record of doing in many instances. Since I live in America and only the US government has direct power over the lives of Americans, I judge US government policy by that criteria. It seems clear to me a global free market for labor is the worst thing imaginable for Americans in the short term, and the world population in the very long run. Free immigration is a handout to corporations, who want to expand the labor pool as much as possible so they can play us all off against each other on a grand scale. It disgusts me enough to watch corporations and businesses play off state and national governments against each other for tax incentives and subsidies. I'm not interested in programming being a minimum-wage job or living under any more of a global techno-corporate system than I already do.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  > I'll grant there could be in Silicon Valley or California I'd be willing to relocate there if it made economic sense. If H1B were not available and bay area salaries higher, it would be more in the realm of personality. I know a lot of great engineers in "flyover states" that more than understand that they'd have to take a decrease in standard of living to move to the Bay Area so don't even consider it.
  - Merad 9y ago
    > I know a lot of great engineers in "flyover states" that more than understand that they'd have to take a decrease in standard of living to move to the Bay Area so don't even consider it. Yup. According to all the cost of living calculators I'd need upwards of $175k in SF to match what I'm getting at the moment in boring old Tennessee. There's no way it's worth it for me.
    - humanrebar 9y ago
      ...and in my experience, those cost of living calculators underestimate how much nicer (and more commutable) homes are in lower cost of living areas.
      - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        They also over estimate how much non housing expenses are in places like SF. Food is often cheaper in those cities, not more expensive, and most non service items cost almost the same. It's a wash.
  - ghaff 9y ago
    The Bay Area situation is complicated. Relocating to the Bay Area from a not-low-cost East Coast area looked like a decrease in standard of living to me 25 years ago. (Admittedly other positions might have been different. But Bay Area CoL has been high for a long time.)
- pm90 9y ago
cronjobber 9y ago
I don't think most are as confused as you'd like them to be over whether H-1B workers are cheaters or willing pawns of cheaters.
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
Sentiment on hackernews is more pro-H1B than not. Of course, there are a few anti-H1B people here, just like there are a few Trump supporters, but they are by no means a majority.
- IshKebab 9y ago
  What? Whenever H1B comes up here everyone is always "Derr H1B Indians taking our jerrbs". I actually don't recall seeing a single comment in favour of allowing any foreign programmers in America. I'm sure there must be some but they are the tiny minority.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    I really don't notice that at all. If anything, its more like H1Bs are good for our industry, don't mess with them. I know all my posts on the topic have been pro rather than anti. Ya, the Indian body shops are a problem, but the H1Bs outside of those certain companies are overwhelmingly positive.
protomyth 9y ago
I really don't think any of the "blame" is about the person holding an H-1B. They made an economic choice for themselves that is logical and profitable. Trying to live a better life is a good thing. I have an extreme hatred for the companies that use H-1Bs as body shops to replace American workers. It is definitely not in the spirit or stated goal of the law, and most through trickery skirt the letter of the law. Those people and the managers who hire those companies are scum. Immigration is a part of the US (well, expect for where I'm typing this, but that's a different story). I believe a lot of rural American has been mischaracterized by the news. Farm country knows a tad bit about immigration. The problem is trickery by body shops which basically gives lie to to the whole STEM shortage, and the worry that folks we are bringing here aren't looking for a better life and actively are seeking to harm. This second point would not apply to almost all H-1Bs. We need to change how H-1Bs work so that we are getting people that we don't have. This should be at a premium price for those workers (after all, if you have skills not available in the US, then you should be paid for it). I still say a minimum salary requirement of $90,000 for any STEM worker on an H-1B would correct a lot of the problems in the system.
marconaut 9y ago
My hatred was earned. I worked in 3 offices with Indians (likely H-1B). Most were not that good, just willing to take anything from the employer. Most of the overseas ones were incompetent and unable to learn or use logic. Many of them honestly couldn't compete with an average American 5th grader. Yes I'm serious. Also some weren't potty trained. Seriously. I still have an email containing directions about how to use the bathroom.

by Velox 9y ago

yardie 9y ago

You're confusing this site with Slashdot.I don't think any HNers believe that all H1-B holders see cheaters. We do realize the H1-B scheme is relatively easy to cheat. I have seen both sides to this. I've worked with brilliant developers on H1-B visas who were brought in as the system intended. I've also seen lots of job postings that were tailored to meet the requirements of a H1-B position, i.e. Poorly formatted, unintelligible, word salad with impossible requirements. Disneyland firing their IT staff and replacing all of them with an exclusive H1-B outsourcer raised all kinds of alarms. It was stories like these that made the government scrutinize those visa schemes further. Glad to see people going to jail for it.

Amezarak 9y ago

I don't think I, or most other people who are against the H1B visa system, have anything against H-1B holders themselves. They're obviously everyday people who are doing what's right for themselves and taking a big risk that generally pays off pretty well for them. If I was in their place, I hope I would have the cojones to do the same thing. Picking up and moving to another country is a big deal. What I have a problem with is the companies who employ them. The intent of the H1-B visa is for companies to be able to hire workers with skills they can't hire for in America. The reality is that 99% of H1-B programmers are hired because they're cheaper or some other anti-labor reason. There is not a shortage of programmers in the US - I'll grant there could be in Silicon Valley or California - these companies are not looking very hard for programmers, and they're more willing to get someone from a foreign country than pay for relocation for someone from say, Iowa, or to open an office there. So, frankly, I see virtually every tech company hiring H1-Bs as committing immigration fraud in order to screw over people like me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1b#No_labor_shortages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1b#No_labor_shortages - basically sums it up. Unlike other people in this thread, I don't give a fig for free markets, except to the extent they make people's lives better, which they do have a decent track record of doing in many instances. Since I live in America and only the US government has direct power over the lives of Americans, I judge US government policy by that criteria. It seems clear to me a global free market for labor is the worst thing imaginable for Americans in the short term, and the world population in the very long run. Free immigration is a handout to corporations, who want to expand the labor pool as much as possible so they can play us all off against each other on a grand scale. It disgusts me enough to watch corporations and businesses play off state and national governments against each other for tax incentives and subsidies. I'm not interested in programming being a minimum-wage job or living under any more of a global techno-corporate system than I already do.

humanrebar 9y ago
> I'll grant there could be in Silicon Valley or California I'd be willing to relocate there if it made economic sense. If H1B were not available and bay area salaries higher, it would be more in the realm of personality. I know a lot of great engineers in "flyover states" that more than understand that they'd have to take a decrease in standard of living to move to the Bay Area so don't even consider it.
- Merad 9y ago
  > I know a lot of great engineers in "flyover states" that more than understand that they'd have to take a decrease in standard of living to move to the Bay Area so don't even consider it. Yup. According to all the cost of living calculators I'd need upwards of $175k in SF to match what I'm getting at the moment in boring old Tennessee. There's no way it's worth it for me.
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    ...and in my experience, those cost of living calculators underestimate how much nicer (and more commutable) homes are in lower cost of living areas.
    - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      They also over estimate how much non housing expenses are in places like SF. Food is often cheaper in those cities, not more expensive, and most non service items cost almost the same. It's a wash.
- ghaff 9y ago
  The Bay Area situation is complicated. Relocating to the Bay Area from a not-low-cost East Coast area looked like a decrease in standard of living to me 25 years ago. (Admittedly other positions might have been different. But Bay Area CoL has been high for a long time.)
pm90 9y ago

cronjobber 9y ago

I don't think most are as confused as you'd like them to be over whether H-1B workers are cheaters or willing pawns of cheaters.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago

Sentiment on hackernews is more pro-H1B than not. Of course, there are a few anti-H1B people here, just like there are a few Trump supporters, but they are by no means a majority.

IshKebab 9y ago
What? Whenever H1B comes up here everyone is always "Derr H1B Indians taking our jerrbs". I actually don't recall seeing a single comment in favour of allowing any foreign programmers in America. I'm sure there must be some but they are the tiny minority.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  I really don't notice that at all. If anything, its more like H1Bs are good for our industry, don't mess with them. I know all my posts on the topic have been pro rather than anti. Ya, the Indian body shops are a problem, but the H1Bs outside of those certain companies are overwhelmingly positive.

protomyth 9y ago

I really don't think any of the "blame" is about the person holding an H-1B. They made an economic choice for themselves that is logical and profitable. Trying to live a better life is a good thing. I have an extreme hatred for the companies that use H-1Bs as body shops to replace American workers. It is definitely not in the spirit or stated goal of the law, and most through trickery skirt the letter of the law. Those people and the managers who hire those companies are scum. Immigration is a part of the US (well, expect for where I'm typing this, but that's a different story). I believe a lot of rural American has been mischaracterized by the news. Farm country knows a tad bit about immigration. The problem is trickery by body shops which basically gives lie to to the whole STEM shortage, and the worry that folks we are bringing here aren't looking for a better life and actively are seeking to harm. This second point would not apply to almost all H-1Bs. We need to change how H-1Bs work so that we are getting people that we don't have. This should be at a premium price for those workers (after all, if you have skills not available in the US, then you should be paid for it). I still say a minimum salary requirement of $90,000 for any STEM worker on an H-1B would correct a lot of the problems in the system.

marconaut 9y ago

My hatred was earned. I worked in 3 offices with Indians (likely H-1B). Most were not that good, just willing to take anything from the employer. Most of the overseas ones were incompetent and unable to learn or use logic. Many of them honestly couldn't compete with an average American 5th grader. Yes I'm serious. Also some weren't potty trained. Seriously. I still have an email containing directions about how to use the bathroom.