5 ms·

"You can't keep paying people more to solve the problem, it doesn't work. No one aspires to earn 30k a year anyway" No! The average income for the USA in 2008

"You can't keep paying people more to solve the problem, it doesn't work. No one aspires to earn 30k a year anyway" No! The average income for the USA in 2008 was $28K! That's the average - meaning that for every person earning $75K (not that much) there are a dozen people earning $20K. 90% of people don't work as an 'aspiration'. The don't have 'careers' they have 'jobs'. And 90% of jobs in this world are not very exciting. Stocking shelves, pushing paper etc.. It's crazy to suggest that 'almost all of our jobs are crap and boring and nobody wants to do them but desperate illegal migrants who'll work for crap pay'. If you pay reasonable wages, people will do regular jobs - that's how almost the entire world works. If there as no negative social stigma doing things like 'stocking shelves' - and BTW it's a very new phenom - then things would work just fine.

thaumasiotes 10y ago
> The average income for the USA in 2008 was $28K! > That's the average - meaning that for every person earning $75K (not that much) there are a dozen people earning $20K. For all your emphasis, this is a pretty dramatic misunderstanding of how averages work. You'd need a histogram to make the claim you're making. The population earning $75K can equal the population earning $20K, or have basically any other relation to it, without affecting the average income.
- ZoeZoeBee 10y ago
  That's why they use Median Income When talking about average income in the US https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_...
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    The article you link to refers first to per capita income, which is mean (the usual average), and then the median.
    - ZoeZoeBee 10y ago
      >The Census Bureau releases estimates of household money income as medians, percent distributions by income categories, and on a per capita basis. Estimates are available by demographic characteristics of householders and by the composition of households
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        Yes, later in the article it says that, too. Which still is inconsistent with your claim; both the median and the usual average, the mean (per capita), are reported, it is not the case that just the median is used and reported as the "average".
        ZoeZoeBee 10y ago
        Strange, perhaps you should tell that to the Census Bureau. PER CAPITA INCOME[4] Table 1: 2007 Estimate is $27,834, but they use the Median not the Mean as you assert... https://www.census.gov/prod/2009pubs/p60-236.pdf https://www.census.gov/prod/2009pubs/p60-236.pdf Edit Neither of you understand there is a difference between what the Census Bureau Considers the Mean and Median Income. Failing to understand that Median Income is not simply half on this side and half on the other is your problem, feel free to read http://mcdc.missouri.edu/allabout/measures_of_income/ http://mcdc.missouri.edu/allabout/measures_of_income/
        thaumasiotes 10y ago
        Here's the text of that [4] footnote, from the pdf you link: > The data shown in this section are per capita incomes and their respective confidence intervals. Per capita income is the mean income computed for every man, woman, and child in a particular group. It is derived by dividing the total income of a particular group by the total population in that group (excluding patients or inmates in institutional quarters). Please try to make arguments that aren't immediately falsified by the quotes you cite in "support". > Edit Neither of you understand there is a difference between what the Census Bureau Considers the Mean and Median Income. Failing to understand that Median Income is not simply half on this side and half on the other is your problem, feel free to read http://mcdc.missouri.edu/allabout/measures_of_income/ http://mcdc.missouri.edu/allabout/measures_of_income/ Sure. From that link: > The median of a distribution is the one that ranks in the middle; since there are 98,003 households in this county we can imply from the median that if you ranked all the households in this county by their income the one in the middle (ranking 49002) would have an income of $34,157.
  - thaumasiotes 10y ago
    The claim I objected to is much more nonsensical based off of a median figure than it is when based off of a mean. You use median income if you want a sense of how much money a "typical person" earns as opposed to how much the entire population earns collectively. But neither median nor mean will tell you anything at all about the shape of the distribution. And yes, as dragonwriter points out, your own link clearly shows that the mean US income for 2008 was just over $28K. (It also shows that the mean US income for 2008 was just under $27K; within-article consistency is not a big priority on Wikipedia...)
    - ZoeZoeBee 10y ago
      You're probably right that Ed was referring to the mean. However, Real Median Income was only $29k in 2008 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N While Real Mean Income was $42k https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MAPAINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MAPAINUSA672N
      - thaumasiotes 10y ago
        Do you happen to know why, according to that wikipedia page, "According to the U.S Census Bureau 'The per capita income for the overall population in 2008 was $26,964'", whereas according to the source of your charts (which suggest that citations should credit the Census Bureau!), it was $38,376? ( https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MAPAINUSA646N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MAPAINUSA646N ). One of those is being seriously adjusted. I tend to suspect it's the Fed chart, which notes that its population base is those aged 15 years and over. I'm still struggling to understand why you responded to my original comment in the first place. What point are you trying to make? The median income value tells you absolutely nothing about the relative numbers of people making incomes other than the median value.
        ZoeZoeBee 10y ago
        Can't speak for wikipedia or those who make the edits, frankly the only reason I responded to you is I know you're confused and so is dragonwriter. Feel free to take a gander at the Census Bureaus reporting of Personal Income. Table 1 Page 7. https://www.census.gov/prod/2009pubs/p60-236.pdf https://www.census.gov/prod/2009pubs/p60-236.pdf Do they use Median or Mean? $27,834 Edit Dragonwriter, You don't understand the difference between Mean and Median Income, hint its not what you think it is

thaumasiotes 10y ago

> The average income for the USA in 2008 was $28K! > That's the average - meaning that for every person earning $75K (not that much) there are a dozen people earning $20K. For all your emphasis, this is a pretty dramatic misunderstanding of how averages work. You'd need a histogram to make the claim you're making. The population earning $75K can equal the population earning $20K, or have basically any other relation to it, without affecting the average income.

ZoeZoeBee 10y ago
That's why they use Median Income When talking about average income in the US https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_...
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  The article you link to refers first to per capita income, which is mean (the usual average), and then the median.
  - ZoeZoeBee 10y ago
    >The Census Bureau releases estimates of household money income as medians, percent distributions by income categories, and on a per capita basis. Estimates are available by demographic characteristics of householders and by the composition of households
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      Yes, later in the article it says that, too. Which still is inconsistent with your claim; both the median and the usual average, the mean (per capita), are reported, it is not the case that just the median is used and reported as the "average".
      - ZoeZoeBee 10y ago
        Strange, perhaps you should tell that to the Census Bureau. PER CAPITA INCOME[4] Table 1: 2007 Estimate is $27,834, but they use the Median not the Mean as you assert... https://www.census.gov/prod/2009pubs/p60-236.pdf https://www.census.gov/prod/2009pubs/p60-236.pdf Edit Neither of you understand there is a difference between what the Census Bureau Considers the Mean and Median Income. Failing to understand that Median Income is not simply half on this side and half on the other is your problem, feel free to read http://mcdc.missouri.edu/allabout/measures_of_income/ http://mcdc.missouri.edu/allabout/measures_of_income/
        thaumasiotes 10y ago
        Here's the text of that [4] footnote, from the pdf you link: > The data shown in this section are per capita incomes and their respective confidence intervals. Per capita income is the mean income computed for every man, woman, and child in a particular group. It is derived by dividing the total income of a particular group by the total population in that group (excluding patients or inmates in institutional quarters). Please try to make arguments that aren't immediately falsified by the quotes you cite in "support". > Edit Neither of you understand there is a difference between what the Census Bureau Considers the Mean and Median Income. Failing to understand that Median Income is not simply half on this side and half on the other is your problem, feel free to read http://mcdc.missouri.edu/allabout/measures_of_income/ http://mcdc.missouri.edu/allabout/measures_of_income/ Sure. From that link: > The median of a distribution is the one that ranks in the middle; since there are 98,003 households in this county we can imply from the median that if you ranked all the households in this county by their income the one in the middle (ranking 49002) would have an income of $34,157.
- thaumasiotes 10y ago
  The claim I objected to is much more nonsensical based off of a median figure than it is when based off of a mean. You use median income if you want a sense of how much money a "typical person" earns as opposed to how much the entire population earns collectively. But neither median nor mean will tell you anything at all about the shape of the distribution. And yes, as dragonwriter points out, your own link clearly shows that the mean US income for 2008 was just over $28K. (It also shows that the mean US income for 2008 was just under $27K; within-article consistency is not a big priority on Wikipedia...)
  - ZoeZoeBee 10y ago
    You're probably right that Ed was referring to the mean. However, Real Median Income was only $29k in 2008 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N While Real Mean Income was $42k https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MAPAINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MAPAINUSA672N
    - thaumasiotes 10y ago
      Do you happen to know why, according to that wikipedia page, "According to the U.S Census Bureau 'The per capita income for the overall population in 2008 was $26,964'", whereas according to the source of your charts (which suggest that citations should credit the Census Bureau!), it was $38,376? ( https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MAPAINUSA646N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MAPAINUSA646N ). One of those is being seriously adjusted. I tend to suspect it's the Fed chart, which notes that its population base is those aged 15 years and over. I'm still struggling to understand why you responded to my original comment in the first place. What point are you trying to make? The median income value tells you absolutely nothing about the relative numbers of people making incomes other than the median value.
      - ZoeZoeBee 10y ago
        Can't speak for wikipedia or those who make the edits, frankly the only reason I responded to you is I know you're confused and so is dragonwriter. Feel free to take a gander at the Census Bureaus reporting of Personal Income. Table 1 Page 7. https://www.census.gov/prod/2009pubs/p60-236.pdf https://www.census.gov/prod/2009pubs/p60-236.pdf Do they use Median or Mean? $27,834 Edit Dragonwriter, You don't understand the difference between Mean and Median Income, hint its not what you think it is