4 ms·

>I've studied it in basic biology classes Nobody is arguing that the basic functionality of vaccines doesn't work - this is a strawman argument that those who

>I've studied it in basic biology classes Nobody is arguing that the basic functionality of vaccines doesn't work - this is a strawman argument that those who wish to dismiss any criticism of the vaccine industry use. Understanding infectious diseases and taking proper personal hygiene measures along with having clean drinking water and plumbing/sewage had much more to do with the decline in infectious diseases than vaccines ever did. The effectiveness of vaccines is highly overstated. Many doctors have spoken out about the vaccine issue. They are typically threatened and punished after doing so. Pharma companies have billions if not trillions of dollars in profits at stake on this issue. To dismiss any concern as being "anti science" is the height of ignorance. Any academic institution is simply a collection of fallible human beings. These institutions can, and have, become corrupted just as easily as any other. There is a very long list of vaccines that have been developed that were later found to have been causing horrible medical problems. The idea that a vaccine could cause medical problems is not at all a controversial one. There is convincing evidence from scientists like a certain CDC whistleblower that there is indeed data showing that there are major problems with the current vaccine schedule. Asking questions like, why has the vaccine schedule for babies exploded to dozens of shots in rapid succession, when there's not been an equivalent explosion in those infectious diseases? Why should gigantic pharma companies, who every year make billions in profits, be not held liable for any harm that is caused, nor are they required to perform rigorous testing with double blind human trials for vaccines (like they are for other drugs)? But I guess since you once studied it in a basic biology class, all those questions are just "dumb anti vaxers".

dpark 10y ago
> Understanding infectious diseases and taking proper personal hygiene measures along with having clean drinking water and plumbing/sewage had much more to do with the decline in infectious diseases than vaccines ever did. The effectiveness of vaccines is highly overstated. Clean water keeps you from getting bacterial dysentery. It doesn't do much to stop you from getting polio. Vaccination and herd immunity are what keep you from getting polio, and smallpox, and measles, and a couple dozen other diseases that used to regularly kill people. The effectiveness of vaccines is not overstated. It's clearly established and it's only because we're fortunate enough to have lived with widespread vaccinations for decades that we've lost sight of the impact they have. > ...There is convincing evidence from scientists like a certain CDC whistleblower that there is indeed data showing that there are major problems with the current vaccine schedule... You made a whole bunch of scary claims with zero evidence. This is not science. This is fear mongering. > Asking questions like, why has the vaccine schedule for babies exploded to dozens of shots in rapid succession, when there's not been an equivalent explosion in those infectious diseases? The reduction in infectious disease somehow indicates that vaccines are low-value to you? The widespread availability and use of vaccination is a huge part of why those infectious diseases aren't common now. How many people do you know who've died of smallpox or polio or tetanus? Also babies don't get "dozens of shots in rapid succession". This is a fear-mongering lie. In the US, before 12 months a child should get a minimum of 14 vaccinations and a maximum of about 22 depending on if some vaccination are taken early, 3-shot vaccine series are chosen over 2-shot vaccine series, and whether the child is considered high risk for certain diseases. Less than two dozen spread across a full year and typically barely more than a dozen. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent-shell.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolesc... > Why should gigantic pharma companies, who every year make billions in profits, be not held liable for any harm that is caused Essentially no one holds this position. You're making up strawmen. > nor are they required to perform rigorous testing with double blind human trials for vaccines (like they are for other drugs Citation? What vaccines are we giving our children that are not rigorously tested?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- apr 10y ago
  Polio is transmitted fecal to mouth, so proper hygiene is absolutely going to prevent you from getting polio. As for the effectiveness, it is absolutely must be questioned, and here is a case in point: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/lawrence-solomon/merck-whistleblowers_b_5881914.html http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/lawrence-solomon/merck-whistleb...
  - dpark 10y ago
    > Polio is transmitted fecal to mouth, so proper hygiene is absolutely going to prevent you from getting polio. Fair enough, but "In the U.S, following a mass immunization campaign promoted by the March of Dimes, the annual number of polio cases fell from 35,000 in 1953 to 5,600 by 1957. By 1961 only 161 cases were recorded in the United States." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine#Jonas_Salk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine#Jonas_Salk This isn't a result of a major hygiene change. So far as I know, hygiene in the US did not drastically change in this time period, while polio cases dropped by orders of magnitude. This is the result of consistent and systematic vaccination. > As for the effectiveness, it is absolutely must be questioned, and here is a case in point This is very interesting and very relevant to whether specific vaccines are effective. It does not in any way dispute that in general vaccines can be extremely effective. For the record, I'm totally in favor anyone putting forth evidence that certain vaccines are ineffective, or dangerous, or even cause autism. So long as there's actual evidence to discuss and debate.
    - apr 10y ago
      The history of eradicating polio was clouded by redefinition of what was considered a polio case not once but twice. Early in the day any case of acute flaccid myelitis was considered polio. You have to realize that poliovirus is just one of a few dozen of enteroviruses that can cause similar effects. Here is a recent case that could have been labeled polio just a few decades ago: http://abc7chicago.com/health/6-year-old-boys-death-linked-to-polio-like-mystery-illness/1585286/ http://abc7chicago.com/health/6-year-old-boys-death-linked-t... I cannot find stats right now but I saw numbers of AFM in India where true polio cases keep going down YoY but the overall numbers of AFM have recently skyrocketed. Also let's keep things in perspective. The absolute number of people getting infected by polio or other enteroviruses do not actually show any symptoms. It is quite rare for the virus to invade the nervous system which leads to the symptoms we all fear.
intended 10y ago
> this is a strawman argument that those who wish to dismiss any criticism of the vaccine industry There we go, the usual methods to discredit science at play again. Firstly, no you are absolutely wrong, in that people directly claim that vaccines are a scam and that they kill babies/children. Next, you are doing the usual spread of FUD, inadvertently or intentionally, which isn't my concern. Either way you are a vector for memes that harm humanity and so are culpable. > Understanding infectious diseases and taking proper personal hygiene measures along with having clean drinking water and plumbing/sewage had much more to do with the decline in infectious diseases than vaccines ever did. The effectiveness of vaccines is highly overstated. What? The only way its overstated is if you don't know what you are talking about. Firstly : Small pox is not cured by clean hands. Secondly: No one is giving vaccines anything more than their due. Well until anti vaxxers showed up, and once you have a radical voice shouting about something, the only signal you get is high contrast and caricratured. Before vaxxers showed up, vaccines were generally a part of a larger series of protections to help human beings. They were pretty awesome, and awesome in their own right. This didnt mean that people stopped valuing hygiene or its place in healthcare. One of the most famous recent examples going around in literary articles has been about how doctor hygiene standards have gone up after they saw what kinds of germs they were carrying. > Pharma companies have billions if not Do you think pharma companies, doctors and scientists exist in a vaccum? They are governed by medical bodies, malpractice laws, and by the larger will of the people. And Doctors have their licenses and their liberty at risk if they poison you. If a drug or technique was found to be dangerous, the people who pushed it on the population while knowing the consequences get fined in billions, and more. > there is a very long list Please share this list, I would like to see it. > There is convincing evidence from scientists like a certain CDC whistleblower Please go ahead and share the papers and peer reviewed articles showing this to be true. > when there's not been an equivalent explosion in those infectious diseases What? They've changed the method and medium to give people their doses. As kids in India we used to have to get several painful injections, which often left scars. Theyve found other ways to get it done today. > double blind trials What? I'm going to test a vaccine on an infant by giving another infant the fucking black death!??!? What the heck are you on? ------------ Look if you believe this stuff, and actually are fair and credulous - spend the exact same amount of effort and time research WHY vaccines work instead of the brain manipulative stuff left out by anti vaxxers.

dpark 10y ago

> Understanding infectious diseases and taking proper personal hygiene measures along with having clean drinking water and plumbing/sewage had much more to do with the decline in infectious diseases than vaccines ever did. The effectiveness of vaccines is highly overstated. Clean water keeps you from getting bacterial dysentery. It doesn't do much to stop you from getting polio. Vaccination and herd immunity are what keep you from getting polio, and smallpox, and measles, and a couple dozen other diseases that used to regularly kill people. The effectiveness of vaccines is not overstated. It's clearly established and it's only because we're fortunate enough to have lived with widespread vaccinations for decades that we've lost sight of the impact they have. > ...There is convincing evidence from scientists like a certain CDC whistleblower that there is indeed data showing that there are major problems with the current vaccine schedule... You made a whole bunch of scary claims with zero evidence. This is not science. This is fear mongering. > Asking questions like, why has the vaccine schedule for babies exploded to dozens of shots in rapid succession, when there's not been an equivalent explosion in those infectious diseases? The reduction in infectious disease somehow indicates that vaccines are low-value to you? The widespread availability and use of vaccination is a huge part of why those infectious diseases aren't common now. How many people do you know who've died of smallpox or polio or tetanus? Also babies don't get "dozens of shots in rapid succession". This is a fear-mongering lie. In the US, before 12 months a child should get a minimum of 14 vaccinations and a maximum of about 22 depending on if some vaccination are taken early, 3-shot vaccine series are chosen over 2-shot vaccine series, and whether the child is considered high risk for certain diseases. Less than two dozen spread across a full year and typically barely more than a dozen. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent-shell.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolesc... > Why should gigantic pharma companies, who every year make billions in profits, be not held liable for any harm that is caused Essentially no one holds this position. You're making up strawmen. > nor are they required to perform rigorous testing with double blind human trials for vaccines (like they are for other drugs Citation? What vaccines are we giving our children that are not rigorously tested?

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
apr 10y ago
Polio is transmitted fecal to mouth, so proper hygiene is absolutely going to prevent you from getting polio. As for the effectiveness, it is absolutely must be questioned, and here is a case in point: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/lawrence-solomon/merck-whistleblowers_b_5881914.html http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/lawrence-solomon/merck-whistleb...
- dpark 10y ago
  > Polio is transmitted fecal to mouth, so proper hygiene is absolutely going to prevent you from getting polio. Fair enough, but "In the U.S, following a mass immunization campaign promoted by the March of Dimes, the annual number of polio cases fell from 35,000 in 1953 to 5,600 by 1957. By 1961 only 161 cases were recorded in the United States." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine#Jonas_Salk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine#Jonas_Salk This isn't a result of a major hygiene change. So far as I know, hygiene in the US did not drastically change in this time period, while polio cases dropped by orders of magnitude. This is the result of consistent and systematic vaccination. > As for the effectiveness, it is absolutely must be questioned, and here is a case in point This is very interesting and very relevant to whether specific vaccines are effective. It does not in any way dispute that in general vaccines can be extremely effective. For the record, I'm totally in favor anyone putting forth evidence that certain vaccines are ineffective, or dangerous, or even cause autism. So long as there's actual evidence to discuss and debate.
  - apr 10y ago
    The history of eradicating polio was clouded by redefinition of what was considered a polio case not once but twice. Early in the day any case of acute flaccid myelitis was considered polio. You have to realize that poliovirus is just one of a few dozen of enteroviruses that can cause similar effects. Here is a recent case that could have been labeled polio just a few decades ago: http://abc7chicago.com/health/6-year-old-boys-death-linked-to-polio-like-mystery-illness/1585286/ http://abc7chicago.com/health/6-year-old-boys-death-linked-t... I cannot find stats right now but I saw numbers of AFM in India where true polio cases keep going down YoY but the overall numbers of AFM have recently skyrocketed. Also let's keep things in perspective. The absolute number of people getting infected by polio or other enteroviruses do not actually show any symptoms. It is quite rare for the virus to invade the nervous system which leads to the symptoms we all fear.

intended 10y ago

> this is a strawman argument that those who wish to dismiss any criticism of the vaccine industry There we go, the usual methods to discredit science at play again. Firstly, no you are absolutely wrong, in that people directly claim that vaccines are a scam and that they kill babies/children. Next, you are doing the usual spread of FUD, inadvertently or intentionally, which isn't my concern. Either way you are a vector for memes that harm humanity and so are culpable. > Understanding infectious diseases and taking proper personal hygiene measures along with having clean drinking water and plumbing/sewage had much more to do with the decline in infectious diseases than vaccines ever did. The effectiveness of vaccines is highly overstated. What? The only way its overstated is if you don't know what you are talking about. Firstly : Small pox is not cured by clean hands. Secondly: No one is giving vaccines anything more than their due. Well until anti vaxxers showed up, and once you have a radical voice shouting about something, the only signal you get is high contrast and caricratured. Before vaxxers showed up, vaccines were generally a part of a larger series of protections to help human beings. They were pretty awesome, and awesome in their own right. This didnt mean that people stopped valuing hygiene or its place in healthcare. One of the most famous recent examples going around in literary articles has been about how doctor hygiene standards have gone up after they saw what kinds of germs they were carrying. > Pharma companies have billions if not Do you think pharma companies, doctors and scientists exist in a vaccum? They are governed by medical bodies, malpractice laws, and by the larger will of the people. And Doctors have their licenses and their liberty at risk if they poison you. If a drug or technique was found to be dangerous, the people who pushed it on the population while knowing the consequences get fined in billions, and more. > there is a very long list Please share this list, I would like to see it. > There is convincing evidence from scientists like a certain CDC whistleblower Please go ahead and share the papers and peer reviewed articles showing this to be true. > when there's not been an equivalent explosion in those infectious diseases What? They've changed the method and medium to give people their doses. As kids in India we used to have to get several painful injections, which often left scars. Theyve found other ways to get it done today. > double blind trials What? I'm going to test a vaccine on an infant by giving another infant the fucking black death!??!? What the heck are you on? ------------ Look if you believe this stuff, and actually are fair and credulous - spend the exact same amount of effort and time research WHY vaccines work instead of the brain manipulative stuff left out by anti vaxxers.