6 ms·

I'm finding I'm having a hard time reconciling the current climate - not necessarily at his supporters (or the opposite), but just at how polar opposite everyon

I'm finding I'm having a hard time reconciling the current climate - not necessarily at his supporters (or the opposite), but just at how polar opposite everyone seems to be on this. For me, I see these organizations as not treating him poorly, but actually willing to call out things he is not being factual on. But at the same time, maybe I'm being biased against him. I want the discourse, but I'm just struggling to understand how the views can be so strongly split from one extreme to the other, and what that means moving forward.

gizmo686 10y ago
At this point, an unbiased observer who just looks at, say, NYT would likely come to the conclusion that one of the following statements must be true: a) President Trump is a pathalogical liar or b) The NYT is a pathological liar when talking about Trump. There is no middle ground where NYT is being fair, and Trump is being reasonable. This means that any reasonable person with a position on this issue must take at least one of the two extremes.
- roywiggins 10y ago
  It's -possible- this is an intentional strategy: people who want to believe the administration are peeled away from news media that aren't 100% in line with the administration's agenda. If you like Trump and want to believe what he says, reading the NYT has got to be an exercise in frustration. Once all remaining supporters don't watch any media that isn't Trump Approved(TM), they're locked in permanently.
  - simplemath 10y ago
    It's the annihilation of truth and its terrifying.
    - iamatworknow 10y ago
      I genuinely believe that we are entering the "disinformation age".
  - gizmo686 10y ago
    There is another potential strategy: attack the concept of honesty. If we get to a point where a significant portion of the population believes everyone, media and Trump, are lying then Trump has much more reign to do what he wants because any reporting on it will instinctively be branded as a lie. So will Trump's defense, but the net result is still a win over believed reporting on <bad thing>.
    - dukeluke 10y ago
      What makes things difficult is that the legitimacy of corporate media was seriously in question before Trump was elected. There seems to have been massive collusion between the mainstream media & the DNC to keep Bernie Sanders a fringe candidate. And it's tough to say "the mainstream media is rigged, but a president saying so openly is bad."
      - roywiggins 10y ago
        "Massive" is overselling it, unless there's a large body of evidence that I missed (which, given my preoccupation with Trump, would not be impossible).
    - Sunset 10y ago
      Trump did not force the media to be douche canoes for years on years.
      - mcphage 10y ago
        Not did the media force Trump to lie continuously, yet here we are.
    - tempodox 10y ago
      > attack the concept of honesty. This. When others are lying, they make a “decent” effort to hide that fact, while Trump doesn't even try. The resulting confusion, when everyone is fighting over who lied about what, is one of his most effective weapons. People are distracted, cachink, goal achieved.
- rhcom2 10y ago
  While I'm firmly in category A I'm not sure that is a fair comparison because the NYT is a huge organization that could very well have employees set on spreading as much biased, misleading or overblown news they could to hurt Trump politically. Also there is the news part of the NYT and the editorial which could have different quality. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it might not be that simple.
dukeluke 10y ago
In our FPTP voting system, a two party system naturally emerges. And during times of hardship, instead of a middle-ground being found like would occur in a multiparty system, things become even more partisan and contentious. It's a fundamental facet of our political system, and won't ever change by using the political system. The political momentum needed is just too great.
- dbcurtis 10y ago
  Exactly. I heard it well put the other day: "Trump didn't cause the current political divisiveness. The current political devisions caused Trump."
  - delinka 10y ago
    I have a feeling this is How Things Work in societies. Similar theories exist about time traveling to the past to kill Hitler: the nationalist population of Germany will then elect the same personality in a different person and we'll still get the same atrocious WWII. You have to make changes in The Little Guys, The Average People to actually effect change. This is where community comes in: get to know people, hang out with them, openly discuss your opinions on basic rights. I feel like once in my life I was able to do exactly this, but I don't want to hijack the thread for that story.
    - dukeluke 10y ago
      Extremism & partisanship does naturally occur, and is seen in every country. However, instead of keeping those groups on the fringe like some political systems do, the American political system amplifies those groups. The majority of people don't like Trump. The majority of people didn't like Clinton. Yet our political system made those our choices. If we want to change our government, we need to find a way to make it capable of changing over time to reflect its people.
    - magic_beans 10y ago
      Please share your story!
Shivetya 10y ago
they chose a side during the election. I have no pity on them but I am not happy with the current Administrations solution to that issue. They should have let them attend and just ignore them. Fortunately there were more than enough agencies left to be representative These news organizations vacated all responsible journalism for eight years, ignoring for the most part two of their own being chased down by an Administration for asking the wrong questions and setting the IRS after another who dared ask on TV the wrong question. Yet all they did was side with that Administration and for the most part they still do. Trump for all his wrongs is using the bully pulpit to call them out. That is not standard Washington and this is why the elites and their paid for press are scared. Both parties are afraid that they have someone who won't bend to their will. Now if he would just get some sense in his head. Damn it is state rights when it comes to bathrooms but not pot? Really?
vinhboy 10y ago
> But at the same time, maybe I'm being biased against him. You're exhibiting the classic -- "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." But you really need to avoid being paralyzed by indecisiveness. There are mountains of evidence that Trump and his cronies lie all the time. There are videos of them saying contradicting things -- straight from the horses mouth as the saying goes. No need to `struggle`.
- vikasg 10y ago
  I would go much farther than that. The attitude being exhibited here is "mind so open your brains fall out". The "prior probability" of human nature is called history. You can't look at every event as if it's happening in isolation. This fetishization of the middle ground is intellectually lazy.
  - vinhboy 10y ago
    > intellectually lazy EXACTLY! It's so easy to use "I want to be neutral" as an excuse for not weighing the evidence. Thank you for saying that!
- mememachine 10y ago
  >But you really need to avoid being paralyzed by indecisiveness. Hardly an excuse to make bad decisions. Howe is being genuinely unsure a bad thing?
paradite 10y ago
I observed and wrote about this polarizing phenomenon about 2 years when the protest in HK broke out: https://paradite.com/2014/11/11/internet-polarized-society/ https://paradite.com/2014/11/11/internet-polarized-society/ Still, I can't believe it has grown so out of proportion in the U.S as well.
anigbrowl 10y ago
It's good that you question yourself constantly - it's the only path to wisdom that I know of. But the downside of skepticism is procrastination and refusal to make unpleasant decisions. When you are faced with Hobson's choice (between unpleasant alternatives), a phenomenon economists call loss aversion inclines us to postpone decisions whose knowable outcomes are likely to be unpleasant. This actually makes things worse, but as the various alternatives remain relatively similar there's an excuse to keep dithering and hope things will somehow change by themselves. You're not alone in this. Note in weeks and months to come how trivial matters will become every more frequently blown up in the news as people grope for an extrinsic solution to the brewing political conflict.
astockwell 10y ago
You are being Gaslighted[1], that's why you express doubt about your own feelings/bias. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
- singularity2001 10y ago
  Gaslight movie 1944 :(

gizmo686 10y ago

At this point, an unbiased observer who just looks at, say, NYT would likely come to the conclusion that one of the following statements must be true: a) President Trump is a pathalogical liar or b) The NYT is a pathological liar when talking about Trump. There is no middle ground where NYT is being fair, and Trump is being reasonable. This means that any reasonable person with a position on this issue must take at least one of the two extremes.

roywiggins 10y ago
It's -possible- this is an intentional strategy: people who want to believe the administration are peeled away from news media that aren't 100% in line with the administration's agenda. If you like Trump and want to believe what he says, reading the NYT has got to be an exercise in frustration. Once all remaining supporters don't watch any media that isn't Trump Approved(TM), they're locked in permanently.
- simplemath 10y ago
  It's the annihilation of truth and its terrifying.
  - iamatworknow 10y ago
    I genuinely believe that we are entering the "disinformation age".
- gizmo686 10y ago
  There is another potential strategy: attack the concept of honesty. If we get to a point where a significant portion of the population believes everyone, media and Trump, are lying then Trump has much more reign to do what he wants because any reporting on it will instinctively be branded as a lie. So will Trump's defense, but the net result is still a win over believed reporting on <bad thing>.
  - dukeluke 10y ago
    What makes things difficult is that the legitimacy of corporate media was seriously in question before Trump was elected. There seems to have been massive collusion between the mainstream media & the DNC to keep Bernie Sanders a fringe candidate. And it's tough to say "the mainstream media is rigged, but a president saying so openly is bad."
    - roywiggins 10y ago
      "Massive" is overselling it, unless there's a large body of evidence that I missed (which, given my preoccupation with Trump, would not be impossible).
  - Sunset 10y ago
    Trump did not force the media to be douche canoes for years on years.
    - mcphage 10y ago
      Not did the media force Trump to lie continuously, yet here we are.
  - tempodox 10y ago
    > attack the concept of honesty. This. When others are lying, they make a “decent” effort to hide that fact, while Trump doesn't even try. The resulting confusion, when everyone is fighting over who lied about what, is one of his most effective weapons. People are distracted, cachink, goal achieved.
rhcom2 10y ago
While I'm firmly in category A I'm not sure that is a fair comparison because the NYT is a huge organization that could very well have employees set on spreading as much biased, misleading or overblown news they could to hurt Trump politically. Also there is the news part of the NYT and the editorial which could have different quality. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it might not be that simple.

dukeluke 10y ago

In our FPTP voting system, a two party system naturally emerges. And during times of hardship, instead of a middle-ground being found like would occur in a multiparty system, things become even more partisan and contentious. It's a fundamental facet of our political system, and won't ever change by using the political system. The political momentum needed is just too great.

dbcurtis 10y ago
Exactly. I heard it well put the other day: "Trump didn't cause the current political divisiveness. The current political devisions caused Trump."
- delinka 10y ago
  I have a feeling this is How Things Work in societies. Similar theories exist about time traveling to the past to kill Hitler: the nationalist population of Germany will then elect the same personality in a different person and we'll still get the same atrocious WWII. You have to make changes in The Little Guys, The Average People to actually effect change. This is where community comes in: get to know people, hang out with them, openly discuss your opinions on basic rights. I feel like once in my life I was able to do exactly this, but I don't want to hijack the thread for that story.
  - dukeluke 10y ago
    Extremism & partisanship does naturally occur, and is seen in every country. However, instead of keeping those groups on the fringe like some political systems do, the American political system amplifies those groups. The majority of people don't like Trump. The majority of people didn't like Clinton. Yet our political system made those our choices. If we want to change our government, we need to find a way to make it capable of changing over time to reflect its people.
  - magic_beans 10y ago
    Please share your story!

Shivetya 10y ago

they chose a side during the election. I have no pity on them but I am not happy with the current Administrations solution to that issue. They should have let them attend and just ignore them. Fortunately there were more than enough agencies left to be representative These news organizations vacated all responsible journalism for eight years, ignoring for the most part two of their own being chased down by an Administration for asking the wrong questions and setting the IRS after another who dared ask on TV the wrong question. Yet all they did was side with that Administration and for the most part they still do. Trump for all his wrongs is using the bully pulpit to call them out. That is not standard Washington and this is why the elites and their paid for press are scared. Both parties are afraid that they have someone who won't bend to their will. Now if he would just get some sense in his head. Damn it is state rights when it comes to bathrooms but not pot? Really?

vinhboy 10y ago

> But at the same time, maybe I'm being biased against him. You're exhibiting the classic -- "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." But you really need to avoid being paralyzed by indecisiveness. There are mountains of evidence that Trump and his cronies lie all the time. There are videos of them saying contradicting things -- straight from the horses mouth as the saying goes. No need to `struggle`.

vikasg 10y ago
I would go much farther than that. The attitude being exhibited here is "mind so open your brains fall out". The "prior probability" of human nature is called history. You can't look at every event as if it's happening in isolation. This fetishization of the middle ground is intellectually lazy.
- vinhboy 10y ago
  > intellectually lazy EXACTLY! It's so easy to use "I want to be neutral" as an excuse for not weighing the evidence. Thank you for saying that!
mememachine 10y ago
>But you really need to avoid being paralyzed by indecisiveness. Hardly an excuse to make bad decisions. Howe is being genuinely unsure a bad thing?

paradite 10y ago

I observed and wrote about this polarizing phenomenon about 2 years when the protest in HK broke out: https://paradite.com/2014/11/11/internet-polarized-society/ https://paradite.com/2014/11/11/internet-polarized-society/ Still, I can't believe it has grown so out of proportion in the U.S as well.

anigbrowl 10y ago

It's good that you question yourself constantly - it's the only path to wisdom that I know of. But the downside of skepticism is procrastination and refusal to make unpleasant decisions. When you are faced with Hobson's choice (between unpleasant alternatives), a phenomenon economists call loss aversion inclines us to postpone decisions whose knowable outcomes are likely to be unpleasant. This actually makes things worse, but as the various alternatives remain relatively similar there's an excuse to keep dithering and hope things will somehow change by themselves. You're not alone in this. Note in weeks and months to come how trivial matters will become every more frequently blown up in the news as people grope for an extrinsic solution to the brewing political conflict.

astockwell 10y ago

You are being Gaslighted[1], that's why you express doubt about your own feelings/bias. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

singularity2001 10y ago
Gaslight movie 1944 :(