6 ms·

I'm always surprised when developers don't talk about the F keys in their reviews of the new MBP. I mostly agree with the author regarding the escape key, the

I'm always surprised when developers don't talk about the F keys in their reviews of the new MBP. I mostly agree with the author regarding the escape key, the touch bar isn't really a problem in that regard, it still works and I got used to "pressing" it on the touchbar really quickly. I really really miss physical F keys though. I spend a lot of time debugging (either in the Chrome debugger or in IDEs) where pressing F-Something seems to be the norm to step into / step over. The lack of feedback makes it a lot harder to use these keys repeatedly (in my experience anyway). I know I could change the keys but... To be honest, that's the one thing that really bothers me about the new machine, I got used to everything else pretty quickly. I should note that I was forced to switch to the new model (my 2014 MBP was stolen). I didn't want a new machine, wasn't happy about getting one and started using it in the worst circumstances which probably didn't help me "learn to love the touchbar". Insurance paid for the new machine so price wasn't an issue for me. I don't think it's an abomination or anything, I just never find it better than a normal keyboard with F keys (I don't do video editing or anything where a timeline might help me). Other developers who use the touchbar MBP, do you not miss the F-Keys ? Have you changed the keys you use to debug ?

WildUtah 10y ago
It's a real detriment to UI, it costs you battery life, it's a distracting gimmick, and it adds $200 to the cost of your machine. And Apple will never give up on it. Every Mac is going to be worse for years and years because of it. Enjoy.
- r00fus 10y ago
  If Apple keeps it, they will improve on it to the point where it doesn't suck.
  - skyrw 10y ago
    The second that happens they will remove it in the following release.
  - hpaavola 10y ago
    I don't believe that the fundamental issue can be fixed. Ironically "Touch Bar" is something you can't feel when you touch it. Real physical buttons guide your finger to the correct location if you miss them slightly. "Touch" buttons don't. To fix that, one would need to rework the whole OS and applications in such way that they don't use F-keys at all, but rather something else. So, fixing Touch Bar means rethinking OS and application shortcuts. I don't think average users really use F-buttons that much, but we developers generally do.
    - jbverschoor 10y ago
      Just wait until the force-touchbar and then the 3d-touchbar. I agree with the feedback, but I'm certain they will add this.
      - RugnirViking 10y ago
        A 3d, force, touchbar sounds awfully like just a row of buttons to me ;-)
    - mgkimsal 10y ago
      if there was even a way to just have the f-keys on all the time by default, that would have helped. Last I looked, that was not an option - you needed to hold down the fn key (or control?)
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - jrs95 10y ago
        You can actually, on a per application basis: http://m.imore.com/how-make-function-keys-default-touch-bar-display http://m.imore.com/how-make-function-keys-default-touch-bar-...
        SomeHacker44 10y ago
        You can't, actually. This only works for some applications. None of my WINE apps, for example, can have this enabled. Apple failed.
- routelastresort 10y ago
  The good thing that can come of this would be the resurgence of the Linux desktop. Apple just crossed the line for me (<32GB, no SSD upgrade, messing with the keyboard). I'll miss the almost perfect trackpad, but there's no way I'll support these choices.
  - dajohnson89 10y ago
    Resurgence? When was it ever popular? Iirc, market share right now is under 5%. I say this as pretty much a lifelong Linux desktop user. I've been waiting and hoping for it to take off, but.....
    - rbanffy 10y ago
      Macs took over some of the developer space that Linux laptops used to be in. As a usable Unix environment with excellent hardware, it's a solid investment.
  - notalaser 10y ago
    Historically, the side effect this tends to have is that a lot of programmers flock to a new platform but bring the way they use and write programs with them. Fifteen years ago we ended up with CORBA- and Window Registry-like components bolted on top of Linux desktops. On the other hand, seeing how nowadays the Linux "community" is mostly a bunch of big cloud, automotive and IoT/vaporware companies, this could be the closest the Linux desktop has to salvation. So far, the attempts to bring elements of the OS X experience to the Linux desktop have been very... cargo cult, in the absence of a more forgiving word. Fetishizing design choices and simplicity has made it very unpleasant to deal with a modern Linux system. Many users of tiling-wm-and-terminal-only desktops don't do so "just" because it's the most efficient option, they do it because the alternatives are horrifyingly bad.
    - meddlepal 10y ago
      I wasn't aware the Linux desktop needed salvation. Maybe it needs salvation for non-technical end users but it's good to excellent for end-users whose primary use involve actually using Linux for what it's good at which is basically being a fully open OS and IDE for software and other engineers.
- WillPostForFood 10y ago
  With only a slightly smaller touchpad, Apple easily could have included a row of function keys, which are half height anyway. Then the touch bar would either be additive, or ignorable depending on one's attitude. But the trade-off makes it painful.
- golergka 10y ago
  > It's a real detriment to UI, it costs you battery life, it's a distracting gimmick, and it adds $200 to the cost of your machine. Apart from the battery thing, the same could be (and was) said about a mouse.
nicky0 10y ago
I have made my living for the past 8 years as a macOS software developer. I never use the F keys.
- Wildgoose 10y ago
  Seriously? I use them ALL the time.
  - chrisseaton 10y ago
    I'm a programmer and I don't use keyboard shortcuts either, apart from Control-C, Control-V and Control-Z.
    - apricot 10y ago
      I play the piano and I never use the black keys, except C# once in a while.
      - chrisseaton 10y ago
        That analogy is nonsensical. A pianist that doesn't use some keys is limited in the music they can produce. I can write exactly the same code as you without using shortcuts. I think the advantage is that I don't have to learn completely arbitrary lists of silly little keys to press, and I can keep my brain-space for useful things.
        neilzo 10y ago
        I'm fairly certain that was a programming/music joke.
        divergio 10y ago
        "and I can keep my brain-space for useful things" Respectfully, the point of keyboard shortcuts is that they are remembered in your hands, not in your brain. This is the main reason most of these commenters reject the Touch Bar: lacking tactile feedback for button position, it seems like it would be difficult to develop "muscle memory" for a Touch Bar function key.
stickfigure 10y ago
Interesting that you mention this. I was tempted to buy a new MBP hoping that I could map the touchbar to debugger functions - I can never remember which F key is which. Little icons would be amazing. Is it not possible to make the touchbar work with IDEA? That would be a major disappointment.
- dkonofalski 10y ago
  It is. On top of that, there are apps and tools that let you customize just about everything.
kristiandupont 10y ago
This bothers me as well. I also have issues with the esc key though. Apparently, I tend to rest my finger on it without noticing (I had no idea). So my subconscious experience with this new laptop is that it seems quite neurotic, constantly closing windows in front of me for no apparent reason, until I discover my finger on the touchbar.
- dan_m2k 10y ago
  Yep. I'm right there with you. I thought the new mac had an issue loading webpages. Turns out I was involuntarily cancelling navigation with ESC all the bloody time.
- potatosoup 10y ago
  Same here. Extremely annoying and I hit this often.
- apricot 10y ago
  > I also have issues with the esc key though. First they came for Scroll Lock and I did not speak out -- because who uses Scroll Lock? Then they came for the PgUp and PgDown keys and I did not speak out -- because I could always use Fn-arrows. Then they came for Esc and I did not speak out -- because I use Emacs. Then they came for the whole keyboard -- and there was no way I could write about it.
yokohummer7 10y ago
Well, my experience is the opposite: while using the new MacBook I realized how infrequent I was using the function keys. The only times that I noticed the "missing" function keys were when I tried to open up the web developer console (F12), or rename a file (F2). I did see Apple's rationale here: ordinary users won't miss them, given I, being a developer, didn't miss them either. But unlike you and the OP, pressing the Esc key did affect me. I couldn't completely get used to the soft key even after using it for more than one month (currently). Every time I try to press Esc, I'm a bit hesitant. The inertia was higher than I expected. So I can't agree with the phrasing that "there is no justification for the apparent panic." The annoyance exists and I'm the living proof.
- 8draco8 10y ago
  But on mac to open Developer Tools you are using Cmd + Opt + I or Cmd + Shift + C and to rename a file Enter key is used. There is almost no use for F-keys on macOS other than volume and brightness controls. I don't have newest MBP but on daily basis I am using 60% keyboard without F-keys row and very rarely have to go to F-keys layer even on Ubuntu and Windows.
  - tqkxzugoaupvwqr 10y ago
    General macOS users don’t have a need for F-keys, true. But the people that use F-keys, typically use them frequently. In my IDE, some shortcuts use F-keys. I use them regularly.
- theodorton 10y ago
  You can re-map the Escape key to Caps Lock. I bought the new MBP and got used to this. Although I returned it later and went back to my previous machine, I still use Caps Lock as Escape. I'm using Karabiner Elements on Sierra. brew cask install karabiner-elements Edit: I also believe it causes less strain on my fingers.
  - yokohummer7 10y ago
    Oh wow. I can't believe I didn't think of it earlier! As a Vim user I've always been told it is good to swap Caps Lock and Esc, yet I haven't actually tried it due to my laziness. Probably now is the time.
zimbatm 10y ago
As a workaround it's possible to show them on the strip: System Preferences -> Keyboard -> Press Fn Key to: Show F1, F2, etc Keys
- swanandp 10y ago
  Even better, System Preferences -> Keyboard -> Shortcuts -> Function Keys; and select the app in which you want the function keys to show up by default. e.g. IntelliJ Idea.
HNLogInShit 10y ago
The Touch Bar takes a gimped, defective keyboard and makes it worse. Apple laptops have always been hobbled by their inexcusable lack of a real Delete key. They only have a Backspace key that's mislabeled "delete." WTF? And Apple petulantly insisted on keeping this defect even after the Eject key became obsolete and could easily have been re-used for Delete. So I thought, well at least maybe you can configure the Touch Bar to have a Delete key (albeit a non-palpable one). NOPE. Many times I wonder WTF Apple's problem is. Another great example is the iPhone's most ridiculous defect: the lack of audible notifications of a missed call. You can be in the shower, or down the hall doing laundry with your phone on its charger in your bedroom (since the battery is a piece of shit) and miss a call... and you'll never know it until the next time you use your phone. There is simply no excuse for this. 1990s cell phones had this glaringly obvious feature. And NOBODY IS ASKING FOR THINNER PRODUCTS. The ridiculous PR gymnastics and gimmicks to make the computer eke out the rated time is STUPID. Put a bigger battery in the goddamned computers and phones. The "thinness" gimmick was played out a decade ago.
daigoba66 10y ago
It's particularly bad for those of use that run Windows/Visual Studio from a Mac. Microsoft products are historically heavily dependent on the F keys with well known conventions (F1=help,F2=rename,F3=find/next,etc).
- mcintyre1994 10y ago
  How does the Touchbar work in Windows? Do you just get esc/f keys permanently?
mattkrea 10y ago
You already had to hit the Fn key to make the Fn keys function, correct? The defaults were the brightness, volume, etc settings. You do the same thing and they all appear on the Touchbar. Zero change in usability there.
- robert_foss 10y ago
  I wouldn't call not being able to feel a key no change in usability.
- yttrium 10y ago
  Generally I think most devs who use MacBooks disable that option (making it so that you have to press fn to get the standard mac functionality) so that they have better access to the Fn keys. I will echo the sentiment, that there's something nicely tactile about key presses that's missing from the touch bar. That being said - I do half my work on monitors using an external keyboard/touchpad anyway, so it's really not the worst thing in the world.
lcedp 10y ago
You can add custom programs to the exception list and F keys would be always shown. It's even better because you don't have to press fn key. That functionality is by default. Xcode debugger looks pretty nice on touchbar IMHO. It would be great if other debugging tools catch up.

WildUtah 10y ago

It's a real detriment to UI, it costs you battery life, it's a distracting gimmick, and it adds $200 to the cost of your machine. And Apple will never give up on it. Every Mac is going to be worse for years and years because of it. Enjoy.

r00fus 10y ago
If Apple keeps it, they will improve on it to the point where it doesn't suck.
- skyrw 10y ago
  The second that happens they will remove it in the following release.
- hpaavola 10y ago
  I don't believe that the fundamental issue can be fixed. Ironically "Touch Bar" is something you can't feel when you touch it. Real physical buttons guide your finger to the correct location if you miss them slightly. "Touch" buttons don't. To fix that, one would need to rework the whole OS and applications in such way that they don't use F-keys at all, but rather something else. So, fixing Touch Bar means rethinking OS and application shortcuts. I don't think average users really use F-buttons that much, but we developers generally do.
  - jbverschoor 10y ago
    Just wait until the force-touchbar and then the 3d-touchbar. I agree with the feedback, but I'm certain they will add this.
    - RugnirViking 10y ago
      A 3d, force, touchbar sounds awfully like just a row of buttons to me ;-)
  - mgkimsal 10y ago
    if there was even a way to just have the f-keys on all the time by default, that would have helped. Last I looked, that was not an option - you needed to hold down the fn key (or control?)
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - jrs95 10y ago
      You can actually, on a per application basis: http://m.imore.com/how-make-function-keys-default-touch-bar-display http://m.imore.com/how-make-function-keys-default-touch-bar-...
      - SomeHacker44 10y ago
        You can't, actually. This only works for some applications. None of my WINE apps, for example, can have this enabled. Apple failed.
routelastresort 10y ago
The good thing that can come of this would be the resurgence of the Linux desktop. Apple just crossed the line for me (<32GB, no SSD upgrade, messing with the keyboard). I'll miss the almost perfect trackpad, but there's no way I'll support these choices.
- dajohnson89 10y ago
  Resurgence? When was it ever popular? Iirc, market share right now is under 5%. I say this as pretty much a lifelong Linux desktop user. I've been waiting and hoping for it to take off, but.....
  - rbanffy 10y ago
    Macs took over some of the developer space that Linux laptops used to be in. As a usable Unix environment with excellent hardware, it's a solid investment.
- notalaser 10y ago
  Historically, the side effect this tends to have is that a lot of programmers flock to a new platform but bring the way they use and write programs with them. Fifteen years ago we ended up with CORBA- and Window Registry-like components bolted on top of Linux desktops. On the other hand, seeing how nowadays the Linux "community" is mostly a bunch of big cloud, automotive and IoT/vaporware companies, this could be the closest the Linux desktop has to salvation. So far, the attempts to bring elements of the OS X experience to the Linux desktop have been very... cargo cult, in the absence of a more forgiving word. Fetishizing design choices and simplicity has made it very unpleasant to deal with a modern Linux system. Many users of tiling-wm-and-terminal-only desktops don't do so "just" because it's the most efficient option, they do it because the alternatives are horrifyingly bad.
  - meddlepal 10y ago
    I wasn't aware the Linux desktop needed salvation. Maybe it needs salvation for non-technical end users but it's good to excellent for end-users whose primary use involve actually using Linux for what it's good at which is basically being a fully open OS and IDE for software and other engineers.
WillPostForFood 10y ago
With only a slightly smaller touchpad, Apple easily could have included a row of function keys, which are half height anyway. Then the touch bar would either be additive, or ignorable depending on one's attitude. But the trade-off makes it painful.
golergka 10y ago
> It's a real detriment to UI, it costs you battery life, it's a distracting gimmick, and it adds $200 to the cost of your machine. Apart from the battery thing, the same could be (and was) said about a mouse.

nicky0 10y ago

I have made my living for the past 8 years as a macOS software developer. I never use the F keys.

Wildgoose 10y ago
Seriously? I use them ALL the time.
- chrisseaton 10y ago
  I'm a programmer and I don't use keyboard shortcuts either, apart from Control-C, Control-V and Control-Z.
  - apricot 10y ago
    I play the piano and I never use the black keys, except C# once in a while.
    - chrisseaton 10y ago
      That analogy is nonsensical. A pianist that doesn't use some keys is limited in the music they can produce. I can write exactly the same code as you without using shortcuts. I think the advantage is that I don't have to learn completely arbitrary lists of silly little keys to press, and I can keep my brain-space for useful things.
      - neilzo 10y ago
        I'm fairly certain that was a programming/music joke.
      - divergio 10y ago
        "and I can keep my brain-space for useful things" Respectfully, the point of keyboard shortcuts is that they are remembered in your hands, not in your brain. This is the main reason most of these commenters reject the Touch Bar: lacking tactile feedback for button position, it seems like it would be difficult to develop "muscle memory" for a Touch Bar function key.

stickfigure 10y ago

Interesting that you mention this. I was tempted to buy a new MBP hoping that I could map the touchbar to debugger functions - I can never remember which F key is which. Little icons would be amazing. Is it not possible to make the touchbar work with IDEA? That would be a major disappointment.

dkonofalski 10y ago
It is. On top of that, there are apps and tools that let you customize just about everything.

kristiandupont 10y ago

This bothers me as well. I also have issues with the esc key though. Apparently, I tend to rest my finger on it without noticing (I had no idea). So my subconscious experience with this new laptop is that it seems quite neurotic, constantly closing windows in front of me for no apparent reason, until I discover my finger on the touchbar.

dan_m2k 10y ago
Yep. I'm right there with you. I thought the new mac had an issue loading webpages. Turns out I was involuntarily cancelling navigation with ESC all the bloody time.
potatosoup 10y ago
Same here. Extremely annoying and I hit this often.
apricot 10y ago
> I also have issues with the esc key though. First they came for Scroll Lock and I did not speak out -- because who uses Scroll Lock? Then they came for the PgUp and PgDown keys and I did not speak out -- because I could always use Fn-arrows. Then they came for Esc and I did not speak out -- because I use Emacs. Then they came for the whole keyboard -- and there was no way I could write about it.

yokohummer7 10y ago

Well, my experience is the opposite: while using the new MacBook I realized how infrequent I was using the function keys. The only times that I noticed the "missing" function keys were when I tried to open up the web developer console (F12), or rename a file (F2). I did see Apple's rationale here: ordinary users won't miss them, given I, being a developer, didn't miss them either. But unlike you and the OP, pressing the Esc key did affect me. I couldn't completely get used to the soft key even after using it for more than one month (currently). Every time I try to press Esc, I'm a bit hesitant. The inertia was higher than I expected. So I can't agree with the phrasing that "there is no justification for the apparent panic." The annoyance exists and I'm the living proof.

8draco8 10y ago
But on mac to open Developer Tools you are using Cmd + Opt + I or Cmd + Shift + C and to rename a file Enter key is used. There is almost no use for F-keys on macOS other than volume and brightness controls. I don't have newest MBP but on daily basis I am using 60% keyboard without F-keys row and very rarely have to go to F-keys layer even on Ubuntu and Windows.
- tqkxzugoaupvwqr 10y ago
  General macOS users don’t have a need for F-keys, true. But the people that use F-keys, typically use them frequently. In my IDE, some shortcuts use F-keys. I use them regularly.
theodorton 10y ago
You can re-map the Escape key to Caps Lock. I bought the new MBP and got used to this. Although I returned it later and went back to my previous machine, I still use Caps Lock as Escape. I'm using Karabiner Elements on Sierra. brew cask install karabiner-elements Edit: I also believe it causes less strain on my fingers.
- yokohummer7 10y ago
  Oh wow. I can't believe I didn't think of it earlier! As a Vim user I've always been told it is good to swap Caps Lock and Esc, yet I haven't actually tried it due to my laziness. Probably now is the time.

zimbatm 10y ago

As a workaround it's possible to show them on the strip: System Preferences -> Keyboard -> Press Fn Key to: Show F1, F2, etc Keys

swanandp 10y ago
Even better, System Preferences -> Keyboard -> Shortcuts -> Function Keys; and select the app in which you want the function keys to show up by default. e.g. IntelliJ Idea.

HNLogInShit 10y ago

The Touch Bar takes a gimped, defective keyboard and makes it worse. Apple laptops have always been hobbled by their inexcusable lack of a real Delete key. They only have a Backspace key that's mislabeled "delete." WTF? And Apple petulantly insisted on keeping this defect even after the Eject key became obsolete and could easily have been re-used for Delete. So I thought, well at least maybe you can configure the Touch Bar to have a Delete key (albeit a non-palpable one). NOPE. Many times I wonder WTF Apple's problem is. Another great example is the iPhone's most ridiculous defect: the lack of audible notifications of a missed call. You can be in the shower, or down the hall doing laundry with your phone on its charger in your bedroom (since the battery is a piece of shit) and miss a call... and you'll never know it until the next time you use your phone. There is simply no excuse for this. 1990s cell phones had this glaringly obvious feature. And NOBODY IS ASKING FOR THINNER PRODUCTS. The ridiculous PR gymnastics and gimmicks to make the computer eke out the rated time is STUPID. Put a bigger battery in the goddamned computers and phones. The "thinness" gimmick was played out a decade ago.

daigoba66 10y ago

It's particularly bad for those of use that run Windows/Visual Studio from a Mac. Microsoft products are historically heavily dependent on the F keys with well known conventions (F1=help,F2=rename,F3=find/next,etc).

mcintyre1994 10y ago
How does the Touchbar work in Windows? Do you just get esc/f keys permanently?

mattkrea 10y ago

You already had to hit the Fn key to make the Fn keys function, correct? The defaults were the brightness, volume, etc settings. You do the same thing and they all appear on the Touchbar. Zero change in usability there.

robert_foss 10y ago
I wouldn't call not being able to feel a key no change in usability.
yttrium 10y ago
Generally I think most devs who use MacBooks disable that option (making it so that you have to press fn to get the standard mac functionality) so that they have better access to the Fn keys. I will echo the sentiment, that there's something nicely tactile about key presses that's missing from the touch bar. That being said - I do half my work on monitors using an external keyboard/touchpad anyway, so it's really not the worst thing in the world.

lcedp 10y ago

You can add custom programs to the exception list and F keys would be always shown. It's even better because you don't have to press fn key. That functionality is by default. Xcode debugger looks pretty nice on touchbar IMHO. It would be great if other debugging tools catch up.