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Several people argue that working long hours will have a negative impact on productivity. For example if you look at EU countries, the ones with the economy in

by pgz 10y ago

Several people argue that working long hours will have a negative impact on productivity. For example if you look at EU countries, the ones with the economy in worse conditions are those with longer working hours (Greece, Italy).

maverick_iceman 10y ago
Correlation doesn't imply causation. Maybe people are forced to work more because the economy is bad.
- hashmal 10y ago
  correlation doesn't forbid causation, either.
  - tylerhou 10y ago
    Right, but the original commenter tried to support his claims with some far-fetched correlation.
- IshKebab 10y ago
  "Correlation doesn't imply causation, but it does waggle its eyebrows suggestively and gesture furtively while mouthing 'look over there'." -xkcd
- chaostheory 10y ago
  There's already plenty of evidence that working beyond 40 hours a week translates into a reduction in productivity. This is not some new, revolutionary insight; it's old news yet so many people and organizations ignore it at the cost of efficiency. The 40 hour work week is not just for your sake, but it's in the company's interests as well. I could be wrong but a lot of the data from was from WWII. When your country's survival is on the line, most civilians will be very motivated to work as much as possible producing municitions and war machines. Some researchers measured productivity vs work hours during this time and they found a certain point where productivity just plummets. Unfortunately these are the only links I can find given 2 min and I don't believe that they cite WWII research: http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2014/12/working-hours http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2014/12/working-... https://eh.net/encyclopedia/hours-of-work-in-u-s-history/ https://eh.net/encyclopedia/hours-of-work-in-u-s-history/ https://medium.com/building-asana/work-hard-live-well-ead679cb506d#.zijtmile4 https://medium.com/building-asana/work-hard-live-well-ead679... (What I like about Dustin's post is that he mentions that you can have a boost in productivity if you work longer hours temporarily like say for two weeks. Beyond that, there's no gain in productivity and most often there's actually a net loss)
  - flamedoge 10y ago
    I would dangerously extrapolate that it's not just productivity that suffers, but also correctness. Anecdotally I made more mistakes and was off mark the longer I extended myself.
    - chaostheory 10y ago
      Yeah that's accounted for as part of productivity as defined by the researchers. Still it's a good point since I didn't mention it.
jeremiep 10y ago
I recently switched jobs and now work 35h/week instead of 40. I get a lot more done in those 35 hours now than I did previously in 40. The worst productivity I ever had was in frantic overtime rushes at the end of projects. There's definitely a link between working hours and productivity.
- pdimitar 10y ago
  One of the most baffling mysteries of our time for me is the fact that this truth (more working hours = less productivity) is still being massively denied and the non-existent and strawman "arguments" against it have been beaten to death and debunked thousands of times... yet never fail to reappear in any discussion on the topic. It seems the economic pressure for supporting this bullshit story is still too strong. Sigh.
  - xamuel 10y ago
    I have a toddler, so no rest at home. I'm either coding or babysitting. Hence, for me currently, more hours is always more productivity.
    - pdimitar 10y ago
      I'd argue that you have to smuggle any productive hours you can, during any time interval of the day -- or the night. That doesn't inherently mean you work more than 40 hours a week, no?
  - ryanwaggoner 10y ago
    Maybe it's because there's a lot of confusion created by people who claim that there's an inverse correlation between hours worked and overall productivity, instead of hours worked and marginal productivity. I have no trouble believing that (on average) someone who works 50 hours doesn't accomplish 25% more than someone who works 40 hours. I find it almost impossible to believe that they don't accomplish more overall though. And this fits the data: why would companies not dramatically push people to work fewer and fewer hours for this magical increased productivity that you're claiming? They could market it as a perk AND get so much more done! What I think is happening: there's little cost to companies to encourage workers to work 60 hours instead of 40. Sure, they won't get 50% more done, maybe only 20% or 30%, but the company doesn't pay overtime, so that's a free 20% or 30%. Of course, there's some point at which overwork does start to impact overall productivity vs standard-40-hours, but it's much, much higher than 40 hours. This study [0] seems to indicate that little extra gets done from 55-70 hours, but from my reading, that still doesn't indicate that someone working 70 hours gets less done than someone working 40 hours. Looking at figure 4 in that study, it looks like you'd have to go to 90-100 hours to see output drop back to 40-hour levels. It just seems ludicrous to me to suggest that for the population at large, working 40 hours is the optimal amount, such that anything less will result in greater overall productivity, and anything more will lower overall productivity. Really? 0. http://ftp.iza.org/dp8129.pdf http://ftp.iza.org/dp8129.pdf
matt_wulfeck 10y ago
That's such a weak correlation. Greek is in a crisis because people are working too many hours? Do you honesty believe that?
- johansch 10y ago
  For the record: Greece is in a crisis because of the combination of: a) massive, pervasive tax evasion b) insane overspending in the public sector. Or, well, cooking the books. Also: Knowing what I've learned about Greece the past five years I wouldn't really put much trust in government-collected data on how much they work.
- pgz 10y ago
  Of course I don't believe these countries demise is caused by longer working hours. I know Italy a bit more than Greece and the main problem there is decades of widespread corruption at all levels of society. But in some way it's a small reflection of an inefficient society.
visarga 10y ago
> those with longer working hours (Greece, Italy). I think it should make sense to have extended working hours in tourism, but it doesn't make sense in office work.

by pgz 10y ago

maverick_iceman 10y ago

Correlation doesn't imply causation. Maybe people are forced to work more because the economy is bad.

hashmal 10y ago
correlation doesn't forbid causation, either.
- tylerhou 10y ago
  Right, but the original commenter tried to support his claims with some far-fetched correlation.
IshKebab 10y ago
"Correlation doesn't imply causation, but it does waggle its eyebrows suggestively and gesture furtively while mouthing 'look over there'." -xkcd
chaostheory 10y ago
There's already plenty of evidence that working beyond 40 hours a week translates into a reduction in productivity. This is not some new, revolutionary insight; it's old news yet so many people and organizations ignore it at the cost of efficiency. The 40 hour work week is not just for your sake, but it's in the company's interests as well. I could be wrong but a lot of the data from was from WWII. When your country's survival is on the line, most civilians will be very motivated to work as much as possible producing municitions and war machines. Some researchers measured productivity vs work hours during this time and they found a certain point where productivity just plummets. Unfortunately these are the only links I can find given 2 min and I don't believe that they cite WWII research: http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2014/12/working-hours http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2014/12/working-... https://eh.net/encyclopedia/hours-of-work-in-u-s-history/ https://eh.net/encyclopedia/hours-of-work-in-u-s-history/ https://medium.com/building-asana/work-hard-live-well-ead679cb506d#.zijtmile4 https://medium.com/building-asana/work-hard-live-well-ead679... (What I like about Dustin's post is that he mentions that you can have a boost in productivity if you work longer hours temporarily like say for two weeks. Beyond that, there's no gain in productivity and most often there's actually a net loss)
- flamedoge 10y ago
  I would dangerously extrapolate that it's not just productivity that suffers, but also correctness. Anecdotally I made more mistakes and was off mark the longer I extended myself.
  - chaostheory 10y ago
    Yeah that's accounted for as part of productivity as defined by the researchers. Still it's a good point since I didn't mention it.

jeremiep 10y ago

I recently switched jobs and now work 35h/week instead of 40. I get a lot more done in those 35 hours now than I did previously in 40. The worst productivity I ever had was in frantic overtime rushes at the end of projects. There's definitely a link between working hours and productivity.

pdimitar 10y ago
One of the most baffling mysteries of our time for me is the fact that this truth (more working hours = less productivity) is still being massively denied and the non-existent and strawman "arguments" against it have been beaten to death and debunked thousands of times... yet never fail to reappear in any discussion on the topic. It seems the economic pressure for supporting this bullshit story is still too strong. Sigh.
- xamuel 10y ago
  I have a toddler, so no rest at home. I'm either coding or babysitting. Hence, for me currently, more hours is always more productivity.
  - pdimitar 10y ago
    I'd argue that you have to smuggle any productive hours you can, during any time interval of the day -- or the night. That doesn't inherently mean you work more than 40 hours a week, no?
- ryanwaggoner 10y ago
  Maybe it's because there's a lot of confusion created by people who claim that there's an inverse correlation between hours worked and overall productivity, instead of hours worked and marginal productivity. I have no trouble believing that (on average) someone who works 50 hours doesn't accomplish 25% more than someone who works 40 hours. I find it almost impossible to believe that they don't accomplish more overall though. And this fits the data: why would companies not dramatically push people to work fewer and fewer hours for this magical increased productivity that you're claiming? They could market it as a perk AND get so much more done! What I think is happening: there's little cost to companies to encourage workers to work 60 hours instead of 40. Sure, they won't get 50% more done, maybe only 20% or 30%, but the company doesn't pay overtime, so that's a free 20% or 30%. Of course, there's some point at which overwork does start to impact overall productivity vs standard-40-hours, but it's much, much higher than 40 hours. This study [0] seems to indicate that little extra gets done from 55-70 hours, but from my reading, that still doesn't indicate that someone working 70 hours gets less done than someone working 40 hours. Looking at figure 4 in that study, it looks like you'd have to go to 90-100 hours to see output drop back to 40-hour levels. It just seems ludicrous to me to suggest that for the population at large, working 40 hours is the optimal amount, such that anything less will result in greater overall productivity, and anything more will lower overall productivity. Really? 0. http://ftp.iza.org/dp8129.pdf http://ftp.iza.org/dp8129.pdf

matt_wulfeck 10y ago

That's such a weak correlation. Greek is in a crisis because people are working too many hours? Do you honesty believe that?

johansch 10y ago
For the record: Greece is in a crisis because of the combination of: a) massive, pervasive tax evasion b) insane overspending in the public sector. Or, well, cooking the books. Also: Knowing what I've learned about Greece the past five years I wouldn't really put much trust in government-collected data on how much they work.
pgz 10y ago
Of course I don't believe these countries demise is caused by longer working hours. I know Italy a bit more than Greece and the main problem there is decades of widespread corruption at all levels of society. But in some way it's a small reflection of an inefficient society.

visarga 10y ago

> those with longer working hours (Greece, Italy). I think it should make sense to have extended working hours in tourism, but it doesn't make sense in office work.