11 ms·

A Muslim “registry” doesn't require a single registration, just data

26 points by johnhess 10y ago

unimpressive 10y ago
This gets brought up every other thread on the subject of 'registries' for minority groups, but if you haven't you really should read IBM And The Holocaust: The upshot is that Germany used their census data to figure out who is and isn't a Jew, but they also used records from synagogues, surname analysis, and other pre-war 'big data' sources along with incredible amounts of IBM equipment to compile their list of undesirables. https://www.amazon.com/IBM-Holocaust-Strategic-Alliance-Corporation-Expanded/dp/0914153277 https://www.amazon.com/IBM-Holocaust-Strategic-Alliance-Corp... With the NSA, Donald Trump will have access to more information about the demographics of American populations and who comprises them than the Third Reich ever had about its own citizens. There will be no registries. And in the throes of a national security hysteria comparable to the fears of influence from anarchism in the early 20th century, there will be no internal will at these agencies to oppose him.
- proksoup 10y ago
  "IBM CEO Personally Offers Company’s Services to Donald Trump" [1] https://theintercept.com/2016/11/16/ibm-ceo-personally-offers-companys-services-to-donald-trump/ https://theintercept.com/2016/11/16/ibm-ceo-personally-offer... [2] https://twitter.com/yogthos/status/799060608561872896 https://twitter.com/yogthos/status/799060608561872896
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- 464192002d7fe1c 10y ago
  An interesting book, for sure. The thing of it was, while they made some very interesting connections they didn't particularly make one that IBM (America) directly knew about the literal holocaust. Now, IBM definitely knew their technology was being used to catalogue specific groups, and thus that that technology was being used to facilitate mass involuntary migrations of those people. What I don't recall (I read this book when it first came out in 2001), is if they knew (or should have reasonably known) that those people were being killed. When I think of the Holocaust, I associate that more with the deaths of those people and less with the forced migrations/etc. Both are terrible, of course, but one is obviously far worse. In any event, that's a very good book to read, even if ultimately I find culpability for IBM to be somewhat tenuous. I'm glad I don't live in a country/world where anyone is proposing registering anyone, Muslim or Jewish.
  - celticninja 10y ago
    whilst one is considerably worse than the other, both were morally repugnant and the 'lesser' offence would now be illegal due to discrimination laws (if they were not illegal then for other/similar reasons). So IBM should have had some awareness of what was happening. In much the same way that we consider Hacking Team selling hacking services to the Syrian government as essentilly being involved with the dissappearance or torture of political activists so we should hold IBM to account for their involvement.
  - mikeyouse 10y ago
    New documents came out after the book was published that showed that IBM had specific punch cards for each concentration camp, each reason (homosexual, Jew, antisocial, gypsy,etc.) and for manner of death (natural causes, suicide, death by gas chamber). The SS had to be trained, the machines had to be maintained, and the cards had to be updated. IBM engineers were on site at each concentration camp throughout most of the war.
    - apta 10y ago
      > New documents came out after the book was published... and for manner of death (natural causes, suicide, death by gas chamber). Do you have a citation for that?
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - mikeyouse 10y ago
        The author of the 2001 book that OP was referring to wrote a new edition in 2012ish with the new docs. He wrote about it in HuffPo: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/edwin-black/ibm-holocaust_b_1301691.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/edwin-black/ibm-holocaust_b_13...
- aikah 10y ago
  > With the NSA, Donald Trump will have access to more information about the demographics of American populations and who comprises them than the Third Reich ever had about its own citizens. Because the NSA was in good hands during Obama right ? No Trump isn't Hitler and the USA aren't going to turn into the Third Reich, it will be no better or worse that the current situation under Obama. The US president doesn't have total power over this country. Stop the insane fear mongering.
  - legodt 10y ago
    No, but this new president is appointing a series of people with white nationalist leanings to a variety of posts within the government that do hold a lot of power. It is perfectly reasonable to be in fear right now. Action is always better, but it takes time to reel from and better understand this new threat to minorities and marginalized groups in the US
    - aikah 10y ago
      > with white nationalist leanings Ah the "white nationalist" narrative. I forgot about that one. There no "white nationalist" appointee. But I guess everybody who isn't a progressive is a "white nationalist" now.
      - hackuser 10y ago
        > There no "white nationalist" appointee In fact there are, including Steve Bannon. There also are religiously prejudiced appointees, such as Michael Flynn and Jeff Sessions. IIRC, that's 3 of the 4 appointees announced so far.
        woofyman 10y ago
        Sessions is a drug warrior and against sentencing reform. He also voted against the don't tell don't ask repeal act of 2010.
        10y ago
- hackuser 10y ago
  It came out recently that the US Census Dept helped the government identify Americans of Japanese decent for internment.
- akytt 10y ago
  Exactly. Which means the resistance to building a functional population registry does not prevent any wrongdoing but stops the society from getting any of the gains. Like having a meaningful way to prevent non-citizens from voting, avoid identity theft etc.
throwaway729 10y ago
"Graph theory" of the sort that's used in social network analysis will become the lie detector test of the 21st century -- junk science based on a poor interpretation of elementary mathematics applied to dubious data sets.
TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
The prospect even more terrifying than a show-up-and-be-recorded registry is that governments and private companies already have all they need to secretly create that registry overnight. Facebook already has all of this data, for users and many non-users. Start panicking.
ythn 10y ago
Good job everyone for letting the government gain so much power. I've said it before and I'll say it again: monolithic governments that have fingers into every aspect of your lives are dangerous.
- Thrillington 10y ago
  And your alternative is?
  - ythn 10y ago
    My alternative is small federal government that leaves a lot more power to states.
Cyph0n 10y ago
As a Muslim American, I am absolutely in awe, and simply shocked that something like this has come up at all. If this trend continues, I will definitely leave the US as soon as I finish up my degree. Last week, my state Georgia tried to pass a bill that would effectively ban wearing the hijab (headscarf) in public. Thankfully, there was a huge amount of backlash and the bill was withdrawn.
- dominotw 10y ago
  I am a Muslim too. I faced more everyday discrimination and derision in my native India than I ever faced here in the United States. Sure is an occasional bigot who calls me a terrorist and asks me to go back , but that is nothing compared to state-sponsored ethnic cleansing pogrom in Gujarat only a couple of years ago. I have friends here from the middle east who claim the same and know shia vs sunni vs whatever animosity is much worse that a registry could ever be. You just need to look at post war Iraq where fundamental US mistake was underestimating how much these people hate each other and everyone else. I remember when I was a kid people wouldn't rent a place to us because we were muslims, something that is still widely practiced in India. Vast majority of Americans are not bigots and as a society they have enacted anti-discriminatory laws that are heavily enforced at all levels of society. You have legal recourse here if you are discriminated against, something that's unimaginable in India.
  - Cyph0n 10y ago
    I am aware of the atrocities that are committed against Muslim/Sunni/Shia/Ahmadi/etc. minorities all over the world and in no way do I condone such policies. I am truly sorry for what you had to go through, brother/sister. There is always someone who had it worse, I guess. And yes, I completely agree; it's much better in the US right now. But if this "plan" goes through, what do you think will happen next? Do you really think that they'll stop there and call it a day? Probably not.
- aikah 10y ago
  > If this trend continues, I will definitely leave the US as soon as I finish up my degree. To go where? because you think things are better abroad?
overcast 10y ago
I like to view this glass half full. I'd totally use this to find all the hot middle eastern chicks in the US.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
whybroke 10y ago
Unless the point of forcing a physical signature is to terrorize that group as much as to collect names. For example, lynchings were not intended as genocide but to keep blacks in fear as much as being a source of psychological indulgence for the murders.
hackuser 10y ago
We're not bystanders; our industry is the most important facilitator of this problem and we understand the causes, implications and solutions far better than anyone. We have a serious responsibility to our fellow citizens, just as the food industry has a responsibility not to poison everyone. What are you and your company doing about it? You have 2 months lead time before your competitor starts rolling out their products: * Is your company minimizing and anonymizing user data? Is it implementing end-to-end encryption? * If your product is hard for users to avoid (e.g., an ISP is hard to avoid, a casual game is not), do you provide a way for users to utilize it confidentially? * Users need private alternatives, which means that FOSS projects need a lot of help making their products much more usable and reliable; can you help out? If you are thinking, 'my little portion won't solve the problem', you're right. Nothing gets done in a democracy unless people all do their little portions, and unless they organize. The United States is the 'Land of the Free' only if its citizens make it that way. .... Also see here: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/11/tech-companies-fix-these-technical-issues-its-too-late https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/11/tech-companies-fix-the...
hackuser 10y ago
Concerns about privacy were considered theoretical by so many for so long. At least now we know the theory, but we need to implement and deploy it ASAP.
jgalt212 10y ago
Not to be flip, but given what Snowden told us, I'm pretty sure this registry already exists.

26 points by johnhess 10y ago

This gets brought up every other thread on the subject of 'registries' for minority groups, but if you haven't you really should read IBM And The Holocaust: The upshot is that Germany used their census data to figure out who is and isn't a Jew, but they also used records from synagogues, surname analysis, and other pre-war 'big data' sources along with incredible amounts of IBM equipment to compile their list of undesirables. https://www.amazon.com/IBM-Holocaust-Strategic-Alliance-Corporation-Expanded/dp/0914153277 https://www.amazon.com/IBM-Holocaust-Strategic-Alliance-Corp... With the NSA, Donald Trump will have access to more information about the demographics of American populations and who comprises them than the Third Reich ever had about its own citizens. There will be no registries. And in the throes of a national security hysteria comparable to the fears of influence from anarchism in the early 20th century, there will be no internal will at these agencies to oppose him.

proksoup 10y ago
"IBM CEO Personally Offers Company’s Services to Donald Trump" [1] https://theintercept.com/2016/11/16/ibm-ceo-personally-offers-companys-services-to-donald-trump/ https://theintercept.com/2016/11/16/ibm-ceo-personally-offer... [2] https://twitter.com/yogthos/status/799060608561872896 https://twitter.com/yogthos/status/799060608561872896
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
464192002d7fe1c 10y ago
An interesting book, for sure. The thing of it was, while they made some very interesting connections they didn't particularly make one that IBM (America) directly knew about the literal holocaust. Now, IBM definitely knew their technology was being used to catalogue specific groups, and thus that that technology was being used to facilitate mass involuntary migrations of those people. What I don't recall (I read this book when it first came out in 2001), is if they knew (or should have reasonably known) that those people were being killed. When I think of the Holocaust, I associate that more with the deaths of those people and less with the forced migrations/etc. Both are terrible, of course, but one is obviously far worse. In any event, that's a very good book to read, even if ultimately I find culpability for IBM to be somewhat tenuous. I'm glad I don't live in a country/world where anyone is proposing registering anyone, Muslim or Jewish.
- celticninja 10y ago
  whilst one is considerably worse than the other, both were morally repugnant and the 'lesser' offence would now be illegal due to discrimination laws (if they were not illegal then for other/similar reasons). So IBM should have had some awareness of what was happening. In much the same way that we consider Hacking Team selling hacking services to the Syrian government as essentilly being involved with the dissappearance or torture of political activists so we should hold IBM to account for their involvement.
- mikeyouse 10y ago
  New documents came out after the book was published that showed that IBM had specific punch cards for each concentration camp, each reason (homosexual, Jew, antisocial, gypsy,etc.) and for manner of death (natural causes, suicide, death by gas chamber). The SS had to be trained, the machines had to be maintained, and the cards had to be updated. IBM engineers were on site at each concentration camp throughout most of the war.
  - apta 10y ago
    > New documents came out after the book was published... and for manner of death (natural causes, suicide, death by gas chamber). Do you have a citation for that?
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - mikeyouse 10y ago
      The author of the 2001 book that OP was referring to wrote a new edition in 2012ish with the new docs. He wrote about it in HuffPo: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/edwin-black/ibm-holocaust_b_1301691.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/edwin-black/ibm-holocaust_b_13...
aikah 10y ago
> With the NSA, Donald Trump will have access to more information about the demographics of American populations and who comprises them than the Third Reich ever had about its own citizens. Because the NSA was in good hands during Obama right ? No Trump isn't Hitler and the USA aren't going to turn into the Third Reich, it will be no better or worse that the current situation under Obama. The US president doesn't have total power over this country. Stop the insane fear mongering.
- legodt 10y ago
  No, but this new president is appointing a series of people with white nationalist leanings to a variety of posts within the government that do hold a lot of power. It is perfectly reasonable to be in fear right now. Action is always better, but it takes time to reel from and better understand this new threat to minorities and marginalized groups in the US
  - aikah 10y ago
    > with white nationalist leanings Ah the "white nationalist" narrative. I forgot about that one. There no "white nationalist" appointee. But I guess everybody who isn't a progressive is a "white nationalist" now.
    - hackuser 10y ago
      > There no "white nationalist" appointee In fact there are, including Steve Bannon. There also are religiously prejudiced appointees, such as Michael Flynn and Jeff Sessions. IIRC, that's 3 of the 4 appointees announced so far.
      - woofyman 10y ago
        Sessions is a drug warrior and against sentencing reform. He also voted against the don't tell don't ask repeal act of 2010.
        10y ago
hackuser 10y ago
It came out recently that the US Census Dept helped the government identify Americans of Japanese decent for internment.
akytt 10y ago
Exactly. Which means the resistance to building a functional population registry does not prevent any wrongdoing but stops the society from getting any of the gains. Like having a meaningful way to prevent non-citizens from voting, avoid identity theft etc.

throwaway729 10y ago

"Graph theory" of the sort that's used in social network analysis will become the lie detector test of the 21st century -- junk science based on a poor interpretation of elementary mathematics applied to dubious data sets.

TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago

The prospect even more terrifying than a show-up-and-be-recorded registry is that governments and private companies already have all they need to secretly create that registry overnight. Facebook already has all of this data, for users and many non-users. Start panicking.

ythn 10y ago

Good job everyone for letting the government gain so much power. I've said it before and I'll say it again: monolithic governments that have fingers into every aspect of your lives are dangerous.

Thrillington 10y ago
And your alternative is?
- ythn 10y ago
  My alternative is small federal government that leaves a lot more power to states.

Cyph0n 10y ago

As a Muslim American, I am absolutely in awe, and simply shocked that something like this has come up at all. If this trend continues, I will definitely leave the US as soon as I finish up my degree. Last week, my state Georgia tried to pass a bill that would effectively ban wearing the hijab (headscarf) in public. Thankfully, there was a huge amount of backlash and the bill was withdrawn.

dominotw 10y ago
I am a Muslim too. I faced more everyday discrimination and derision in my native India than I ever faced here in the United States. Sure is an occasional bigot who calls me a terrorist and asks me to go back , but that is nothing compared to state-sponsored ethnic cleansing pogrom in Gujarat only a couple of years ago. I have friends here from the middle east who claim the same and know shia vs sunni vs whatever animosity is much worse that a registry could ever be. You just need to look at post war Iraq where fundamental US mistake was underestimating how much these people hate each other and everyone else. I remember when I was a kid people wouldn't rent a place to us because we were muslims, something that is still widely practiced in India. Vast majority of Americans are not bigots and as a society they have enacted anti-discriminatory laws that are heavily enforced at all levels of society. You have legal recourse here if you are discriminated against, something that's unimaginable in India.
- Cyph0n 10y ago
  I am aware of the atrocities that are committed against Muslim/Sunni/Shia/Ahmadi/etc. minorities all over the world and in no way do I condone such policies. I am truly sorry for what you had to go through, brother/sister. There is always someone who had it worse, I guess. And yes, I completely agree; it's much better in the US right now. But if this "plan" goes through, what do you think will happen next? Do you really think that they'll stop there and call it a day? Probably not.
aikah 10y ago
> If this trend continues, I will definitely leave the US as soon as I finish up my degree. To go where? because you think things are better abroad?

overcast 10y ago

I like to view this glass half full. I'd totally use this to find all the hot middle eastern chicks in the US.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

whybroke 10y ago

Unless the point of forcing a physical signature is to terrorize that group as much as to collect names. For example, lynchings were not intended as genocide but to keep blacks in fear as much as being a source of psychological indulgence for the murders.

hackuser 10y ago

We're not bystanders; our industry is the most important facilitator of this problem and we understand the causes, implications and solutions far better than anyone. We have a serious responsibility to our fellow citizens, just as the food industry has a responsibility not to poison everyone. What are you and your company doing about it? You have 2 months lead time before your competitor starts rolling out their products: * Is your company minimizing and anonymizing user data? Is it implementing end-to-end encryption? * If your product is hard for users to avoid (e.g., an ISP is hard to avoid, a casual game is not), do you provide a way for users to utilize it confidentially? * Users need private alternatives, which means that FOSS projects need a lot of help making their products much more usable and reliable; can you help out? If you are thinking, 'my little portion won't solve the problem', you're right. Nothing gets done in a democracy unless people all do their little portions, and unless they organize. The United States is the 'Land of the Free' only if its citizens make it that way. .... Also see here: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/11/tech-companies-fix-these-technical-issues-its-too-late https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/11/tech-companies-fix-the...

hackuser 10y ago

Concerns about privacy were considered theoretical by so many for so long. At least now we know the theory, but we need to implement and deploy it ASAP.

jgalt212 10y ago

Not to be flip, but given what Snowden told us, I'm pretty sure this registry already exists.